Calvinism and Universalism

[Paidion]

Homer, you asked:

Is it your view that God is able to make an infinite number of calculations of all possible actions, and the way they will all interact, etc., and come up with predictions that are mostly correct, but occasionally wrong, and that the only way He can be certain is by intervention, including overriding free-will?

I think you're getting closer to understand my position.

However, your suggestion that I think God's predictions are "occasionally wrong" belies the fact that you are still thinking in terms of the future being knowable. God's predictions are never "wrong", although they do not always become reality. They are perfect predictions based on the knowledge available, and ALL KNOWLEDGE IS AVAILABLE TO GOD, since He is omniscient. But the choices that free will agents will make cannot be known in advance since there is nothing to know. That is why people's choices are sometimes not what God expected --- His expectations are based on His perfect and complete knowledge, but that does not include, of course, information which does not yet exist, but will exist after people have made their choices.

[steve7150]

Sorry if this sounds like blasphemy but the fact is the bible does sound contradictory when it comes to God's foreknowledge. For example if God foreknew everything that will happen how could he add 15 years to Hezekiah's life?

"Thus says the Lord, Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover." 2 Kings 20.1
"Hezekiah then prayed earnestly and persuaded the Lord to add 15 years to his life." 2 Kings 20.6

If God foreknows everything how could Hezekiah persuade him to change his mind and ADD 15 years to his life if Hezekiah was destined to live that long all along?
In verse 1 God told Hezekiah he would die and not recover yet that's not what happened therefore should we read into this and assume God was trying to humble or scare Hezekiah into praying?

[RND]

Sorry if this sounds like blasphemy but the fact is the bible does sound contradictory when it comes to God's foreknowledge. For example if God foreknew everything that will happen how could he add 15 years to Hezekiah's life?

"Thus says the Lord, Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover." 2 Kings 20.1
"Hezekiah then prayed earnestly and persuaded the Lord to add 15 years to his life." 2 Kings 20.6

If God foreknows everything how could Hezekiah persuade him to change his mind and ADD 15 years to his life if Hezekiah was destined to live that long all along?

What's to say that God didn't know in advance He would add 15 years to Hezekiah's life? If that addition was already planned out then what was the purpose God had in having Hezekiah pray for additional years?

In verse 1 God told Hezekiah he would die and not recover yet that's not what happened therefore should we read into this and assume God was trying to humble or scare Hezekiah into praying?

Much like a parent that catches their kid smoking that says, "that stuff will kill you" the parent doesn't literally mean "right now." Could it be that this is the type of picture that God was trying to convey to Hezekiah?

[steve7150]

What's to say that God didn't know in advance He would add 15 years to Hezekiah's life? If that addition was already planned out then what was the purpose God had in having Hezekiah pray for additional years?



Because then God would'nt be adding to something already known. By definition when you add to something you are making a change. You can use presuppositions to rationalize the words to fit into a theology but no one who did'nt already accept God's foreknowledge would not see that God simply changed his mind in response to a prayer.
If God truly changed his mind then this is a switch in plans and if God truly foreknew he would change his mind, then he did'nt actually change his mind because everything had already been known.

[RND]

Because then God would'nt be adding to something already known. By definition when you add to something you are making a change. You can use presuppositions to rationalize the words to fit into a theology but no one who did'nt already accept God's foreknowledge would not see that God simply changed his mind in response to a prayer.

In the thoughts of a human it would be an "addition" but in God's frame of mind those additional 15 years would have been a given.

If God truly changed his mind then this is a switch in plans and if God truly foreknew he would change his mind, then he did'nt actually change his mind because everything had already been known.

That's exactly right, but in the mind of finite humans what God did to Hezekiah could be seen as God changing His mind.

[steve7150]

Thus says the Lord, Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover." 2 Kings 20.1
"Hezekiah then prayed earnestly and persuaded the Lord to add 15 years to his life." 2 Kings 20.6


According to you RND we can not read this in a straightforward manner, we must assume God is in effect disguising certain facts as to speak in a way that makes it appear to Hezekiah that he changed his mind in response to a prayer when he really did'nt change his mind because he really foreknew everything in advance.
This method of reading the bible can lead into incalculable problems IMO. What can we believe or what must we suspect may be a disguised way of speaking so that we believe something that's not actually true.

[RND]

According to you RND we can not read this in a straightforward manner, we must assume God is in effect disguising certain facts as to speak in a way that makes it appear to Hezekiah that he changed his mind in response to a prayer when he really did'nt change his mind because he really foreknew everything in advance.

Is what is being said in 2 Kings 20:1 any different than what is actually a common theme in scripture, that is in the long run, we die? Of course not. One theme of scripture is for us to do exactly that, lead a good life, for we will die. Now that said, is it possible for God to be bargained with or persuaded to change His mind?

This method of reading the bible can lead into incalculable problems IMO.

If there wasn't a mountain of evidence to support the notion that God is different than we are in thought, word, action and deed I might agree with you, but we have evidence through His word that helps in understanding the overall picture.

What can we believe or what must we suspect may be a disguised way of speaking so that we believe something that's not actually true.

Well, it would help if we constantly looked at things in the Bible contextually as a whole and not certain stories or allegories as a separate part from the whole. I think that suggesting that God can be "persuaded" in some way makes Him seem less than an omnipotent, omnipresence God. It makes God seem unsure, ever changeable - one who is constantly changing His mind.

If we, as humans, can utter things to our children without actually intending to do what we say we are going to do, is it not possible that God can do the same thing?

[steve7150]

Thus says the Lord, Set your house in order, for you shall die, you shall not recover." 2 Kings 20.1
"Hezekiah then prayed earnestly and persuaded the Lord to add 15 years to his life." 2 Kings 20.6



I'm not suggesting God can be persuaded but the writer of 2nd Kings simply stated God was actually persuaded. Is this such a terrible proposition that God could be persuaded here and as Abraham did with God regarding Sodom or as Moses did or when God said he regreted making man before the flood came?

[Paidion]

Jeremiah not only believed the LORD would change His mind about His prophesy through him to destroy Jerusalem, but the elders of the land brought up the example of Micah prophesying that Jerusalem would be destroyed (you can read this prophecy in Micah 3:12), and the LORD did, in fact, change His mind in response to Hezekiah's entreaty and didn't destroy it.

The priests and the prophets and all the people heard Jeremiah speaking these words in the house of the LORD. When Jeremiah finished speaking all that the LORD had commanded him to speak to all the people, the priests and the prophets and all the people seized him, saying, "You must die!"Why have you prophesied in the name of the LORD saying, ‘This house will be like Shiloh and this city will be desolate, without inhabitant’?" And all the people gathered about Jeremiah in the house of the LORD.

When the officials of Judah heard these things, they came up from the king’s house to the house of the LORD and sat in the entrance of the New Gate of the LORD’S house. Then the priests and the prophets spoke to the officials and to all the people, saying, "A death sentence for this man! For he has prophesied against this city as you have heard in your hearing."

Then Jeremiah spoke to all the officials and to all the people, saying, "The LORD sent me to prophesy against this house and against this city all the words that you have heard."Now therefore amend your ways and your deeds and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will change His mind about the misfortune which He has pronounced against you.
But as for me, behold, I am in your hands; do with me as is good and right in your sight.Only know for certain that if you put me to death, you will bring innocent blood on yourselves, and on this city and on its inhabitants; for truly the LORD has sent me to you to speak all these words in your hearing."

Then the officials and all the people said to the priests and to the prophets, "No death sentence for this man! For he has spoken to us in the name of the LORD our God."

Then some of the elders of the land rose up and spoke to all the assembly of the people, saying, "Micah of Moresheth prophesied in the days of Hezekiah king of Judah; and he spoke to all the people of Judah, saying, ‘Thus the LORD of hosts has said, "Zion will be plowed as a field, And Jerusalem will become ruins, And the mountain of the house as the high places of a forest."’"Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him to death? Did he not fear the LORD and entreat the favor of the LORD, and the LORD changed His mind about the misfortune which He had pronounced against them? But we are committing a great evil against ourselves." Jeremiah 26: 7-19 NASB

[RND]

I'm not suggesting God can be persuaded but the writer of 2nd Kings simply stated God was actually persuaded.

If God knew a fore time what would happen was God persuaded or was the writer of 2 Kings convinced God was persuaded?

Is this such a terrible proposition that God could be persuaded here and as Abraham did with God regarding Sodom or as Moses did or when God said he regreted making man before the flood came?

When seen though the human perspective one might be inclined to think that God was persuaded, or convinced in some fashion, but how can this be when God knows the end from the beginning? Didn't God know in advance that Abraham would ask a righteous man in Sodom? Didn't God know in advance that Moses would plead for the life of the Children of Israel? Likewise, didn't God know in advance that Hezekiah would ask for more years of life?