Begotten before all ages

[Suzana]

Hi Suzana,

I hope you don't mind but I moved your question to my thread. The response is important to my topic.

It's post number 6

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2474

No problems Paul, thanks for replying.

[Paidion]

That's an interesting thought considering that time was created before man.

How much time did it take for God to create time?

God knew, unfortunately, that Adam would sin.

It is logically impossible to know what a free-will agent will choose.

It sounds like Paul uses "and" to mean "therefore" thus continuing the stream of thought plus if God promised the fathers , it would be an extraordinary future event verses what you believe which would be a past event.
Plus Col 1.15-1.18 confirms this IMHO by defining "firstborn of creation" (begotten) as "firstborn from the dead" or resurrection.

Steve, why do you write "begotten" in parentheses, as if the two were equivalent. It's not "first begotten"; it's "first born from the dead". Jesus was begotten before all ages. But he was born into the resurrection. The same with us. We weren't "born" again (as in John 3, in spite of what nearly everyone says), we were begotten again. We grow in the womb, so to speak, during our earthly life, and will be born again into the resurrection --- just like Jesus, who was the first to be born into the resurrection.

However, Jesus as the "firstborn of creation" refers to His having been been the first begotten. Unlike the English word, the Greek word for "create" sometimes refers to "begetting".

After stating that Jesus is "the first born of creation" the following verse explains:

For in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities––all things were created through him and for him.


Paul explained that after the first came into being, then the Father created everything else in Him, through Him, and for Him.

[RND]

How much time did it take for God to create time?

That's like asking "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop." Nanoseconds? Milliseconds? A day?

It is logically impossible to know what a free-will agent will choose.

If you're referring to man I'd agree, but if you're referring to God I'd simply ask how do you know what is or isn't possible for God?

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

[Paidion]

How much time did it take for God to create time?

That's like asking "how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop." Nanoseconds? Milliseconds? A day?

No. I'ts not at all like that. I asked the question to see whether you would see the inconsistency of time having been created. For if it took any time at all for God to create time, then time existed before God created it.

After the first two events occurred, there of necessity was a period of time between the events. Just as after the matter was created, there was of necessity a distance between created objects. So God didn't create space either. Space is not a substance that had to be created. Space is nothing but a concept which relates distances between objects..

It is logically impossible to know what a free-will agent will choose.

If you're referring to man I'd agree, but if you're referring to God I'd simply ask how do you know what is or isn't possible for God?

I know it, because it's self-contradictory. I have proved that on other threads. I can repeat it here if you wish. I want to make clear that I believe in the omniscience of God. It's just that knowing what a free will agent will choose is not an object of knowledge.

Meanwhile, I would ask you the question, "Can God create a stone so large that He cannot lift it?" God is omnipotent, but creating such a stone is not an object of power.

For if God can't create such a stone, then there is something He cannot do, namely create such a stone. But if He can create such a stone, there is He cannot do, namely lift it.

Thus to affirm that God cannot create a stone so large that He cannot lift it, is not a denial of His omnipotence.

Likewise, to affirm that God cannot know what a free will agent will choose, is not a denial of His omniscience.

[TK]

nor can God make 2 + 2 = 5.

God knows all that is knowable. That is omniscience. Some are squeamish about God not knowing the unknowable. That is where the main resistance to open theism lies, i believe.

TK

[RND]

No. I'ts not at all like that. I asked the question to see whether you would see the inconsistency of time having been created. For if it took any time at all for God to create time, then time existed before God created it.

There isn't anything inconsistent in the creation of time. It took God six days to created earth and all that is in them, Certainly God could have done everything in a nano-second. Would you suggest the same for the earth that if it took God anytime at all to create earth then the earth existed before God made it.

After the first two events occurred, there of necessity was a period of time between the events. Just as after the matter was created, there was of necessity a distance between created objects. So God didn't create space either. Space is not a substance that had to be created. Space is nothing but a concept which relates distances between objects..

Time was made before man. That was the point I was making.

I know it, because it's self-contradictory. I have proved that on other threads. I can repeat it here if you wish. I want to make clear that I believe in the omniscience of God. It's just that knowing what a free will agent will choose is not an object of knowledge.

Sure it is. When teaching my kids to ride a "two wheeler" I knew they where going to fall down and scrape their knee. How did I know that? Am I omnipotent and omniscience? Of course not. Yet I knew they would fall. God knew this about Adam's sin. That's why the plan of salvation was made before Adam's sin.

Meanwhile, I would ask you the question, "Can God create a stone so large that He cannot lift it?" God is omnipotent, but creating such a stone is not an object of power.

Considering God holds the entire universe together just by uttering words I would say that God's word has tremendous power.

For if God can't create such a stone, then there is something He cannot do, namely create such a stone. But if He can create such a stone, there is He cannot do, namely lift it.

The only thing God can not do is make people or force people to love Him.

Thus to affirm that God cannot create a stone so large that He cannot lift it, is not a denial of His omnipotence.

No, that's true, it's an affirmation of it.

Likewise, to affirm that God cannot know what a free will agent will choose, is not a denial of His omniscience.

Right but I never suggested it was. You apparently seem to be projecting. But your statement doesn't change the fact that, "God knew, unfortunately, that Adam would sin."

[Pierac]

Dia, must be understood in the context of the whole of scripture. For example, you can not know the bible by the parts, you can only know it by the whole. The creation of chapters and verses are the main reason we have over 30,000 Christian denominations. What I'm trying to say is each verse, that contains the Greek word Dia, needs to be looked at in the whole of biblical context related to that verse, not just that single verse.

"The context of the whole of scripture". Paul there is no context to "the whole of scripture". I am sure you realize that the Bible is a collection of many different writings by many different authors over vast periods of time. To discover the way a Greek word is used, we need to look at its immediate context in as many different places as possible, including the Septuagint and extra-biblical Greek writings of the time such as the Apocrypha or even gnostic writings.

But there is Paidion, for example. It you were an early Church and only had the Gospel of Mark, you would know nothing of Jesus' virgin birth. In fact it almost rejects it!

Mar 3:21 And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, "He is out of his mind." :22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem were saying, "He is possessed by Beelzebul," and "by the prince of demons he casts out the demons." 23 And he called them to him and said to them in parables, "How can Satan cast out Satan?

It would appear with out the other Gospels that Jesus' own family knew nothing of his virgin birth.

No Paidion, we need the whole to understand the parts. Including the Septuagint and extra-biblical Greek writings of the time such as the Apocrypha or even gnostic writings as you have suggested.


CLV Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim, does from the beginning to the terminus."


Paul








Remember, I'm not talking about saving knowledge. I'm talking about God and his plan for humanity.

[steve7150]

Did'nt Paul use the word begotten to refer to the resurrection?

No, he used the word "born" for that purpose. You may have the following passage in mind:

And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,
“‘You are my Son,
today I have begotten you.’
And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way, “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ Acts 13:32-34





Paidion,

1. God made a promise to the fathers.
2. God fulfilled the promise by raising Jesus
3. As i read this Paul now quotes the promise "You are my Son today i have begotten you."

It seems pretty straightforward that raising Jesus is linked together with "today i have begotten you" by Paul. If this is true then Jesus was not begotten outside of the resurrection which would make sense because how could God's Word be begotten anymore then God was begotten.
I realize your previous response concerned the words "And as for the fact" indicates to you that Paul was starting a new subject but even before this Paul had already linked the raising of Jesus to being begotten.

[Paidion]

Steve, I can see why you might think the following passage is ALL about the resurrection of Christ:

26 "Brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you that fear God, to us has been sent the message of this salvation.
27 For those who live in Jerusalem and their rulers, because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets which are read every sabbath, fulfilled these by condemning him.
28 Though they could charge him with nothing deserving death, yet they asked Pilate to have him killed.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a tomb.
30 But God raised him from the dead;
31 and for many days he appeared to those who came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are now his witnesses to the people.
32 And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers,
33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus; as also it is written in the second psalm, ‘Thou art my Son, today I have begotten thee.’
34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he spoke in this way, ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’
35 Therefore he says also in another psalm, ‘Thou wilt not let thy Holy One see corruption.’

Clearly up to verse 31, it IS about the resurrection of Christ. "God raised Him from the dead."
Interestingly, the word for "raised" in verse 30 is "ἐγειρω" [Strong's 1453] but in verse 33, where he speaks of God "raising Jesus", it is "ἀνιστημι" [Strong's 450]. Why do you suppose Paul used a different word in verse 33? Could it be that he was talking about a different kind of "raising"? Lexicons indeed indicate that "ἀνιστημι" can mean "to cause to appear, arise, stand forth". What follows is a verse which has that very meaning. It is part of Stephen's speech to the Jews in the synagogue:

Acts 3:22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up ["ἀνιστημι"]for you a prophet from your brethren as he raised me up. You shall listen to him in whatever he tells you."

Clearly neither the raising of Moses nor the raising of that prophet (Jesus) is a reference to being raised from the dead.

John Gill, commenator and Bible expositor also understood the raising in verse 33 as speaking of his being raised up, and sent forth into the world, not of his being raised from the dead:

Ver. 33. God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children in that he hath raised up Jesus again; which may not be understood of his resurrection from the dead, since the promise made, and now fulfilled, has not a single respect to that; but of his being raised up, and sent forth into the world, to be a Saviour and Redeemer, and to sit upon the throne of David, as in #Ac 2:30 3:26 13:23 of which raising of him up to regal dignity, mention is made in #Ps 2:1-12, #Ps 6:1-7:17 which is produced as a testimony of it; and the rather this seems to be the sense, since the article of the resurrection of the dead is spoken of in the next verse, as distinct from this...

34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he spoke in this way, ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’

I, too, thought the introductory clause "And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption" shows the reference to Christ's resurrection as distinct from the raising to which verse 33 refers.

As I see it, God raised Jesus, "caused Him to appear, arise, and stand forth", when He begat Him as His first act. This is why Paul referred to the words of the Psalm, "This day have I begotten you." God begat Him as His first act at the beginning of time, and thus He appeared, arose, and stood forth to obey His Father's will. His Father created the Universe through Him, and at one point sent Him to become a human being, and to die to deliver us from our sinful nature.

[Pierac]

As I see it, God raised Jesus, "caused Him to appear, arise, and stand forth", when He begat Him as His first act. This is why Paul referred to the words of the Psalm, "This day have I begotten you." God begat Him as His first act at the beginning of time, and thus He appeared, arose, and stood forth to obey His Father's will. His Father created the Universe through Him, and at one point sent Him to become a human being, and to die to deliver us from our sinful nature.

No no no, Paidion!

Not through but "because of" or "on account of" The Greek... DIA


G1223
διά
dia; a prim. prep.; through, on account of, because of: - account (4), after (2), afterward (1), always *(2), because (111), between *(1), briefly *(1), charge *(1), constantly (1), continually *(6), during (1), forever *(1), gives (1), means (3), over (1), presence (1), reason (40), sake (41), sakes (5), since (1), so then *(1), so *(1), therefore *(16), this reason *(1), this *(1), though (1), through (225), through the agency (1), through *(1), view (2), way (3), what (1), why (3), why *(27).

And the little word “of” better known by the Greek word ek

G1537
ἐκ, ἐξ
ek ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): - after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.


Dia is the “preposition of attendant circumstances" and signifies instrumental agency. Put simply, this means that dia denotes the means by which an action is accomplished. And Scripture tells us that God the originator is bringing His purpose, His logos to fulfillment through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the Agent, the Mediator of God's master plan. Jesus is always seen as secondary, or subordinate to the Father. There are occasional exceptions to this general use of the preposition dia. Sometimes blessings are said to come to us through God (e.g. 1 Cor 1:9; Heb.2: 10). But usually there is a clear distinction made between God’s initiating activity and the means through which God brings that activity to pass. The prepositions used of God's action are hypo and ek which point to primary causation or origin. Let's cement this idea in our minds by looking at one or two verses that highlight the difference: “yet for us there is but one God, the father, from [ek, ‘out from’ ] whom are all things, and we exist for [ eis, ‘to’ ] Him; and one lord, Jesus Christ, through [dia] him” (1Cor.8:6). Prepositions are the signposts that point out the direction of a passage. Ek indicates something coming out from its source or origin, and indicates motion from the interior. In other words, all things came out from the loving heart of God, or God's “interior”, so to speak.

This agrees with Genesis 1:1 which says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth”. Both verses say that the source of “all things” is the one true God, the Creator of the heavens and the earth and the Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. In contradistinction to this "one God and Father" out of Whom all things originate, the "one Lord, Jesus Messiah” is giving the preposition dia which means "through." In other words, Jesus is God's agent through whom God
accomplishes His plan for our lives. This is a consistent pattern all the way through the N.T. God the Father is the source, the origin of all blessings, and Jesus His Son brings those blessings of salvation to us:

"Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ" (2 Cor.5:18).

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… has blessed us… in Christ. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to himself” (Eph.1:3-5).

"For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess.5:9).

"God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus” (Rom. 2:16).

"For God… has saved us, and called us... according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity" (2 Tim 1:9).

"Blessed be God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has caused us to be born-again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" (1 Peter 1:3).

"To the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen" (Jude 25).

"Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which god performed through him in your midst" (Acts 2:22).

Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.(miracles).

Paul tell us in 1Co 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord (Master), Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through (dia) whom we exist.

Always God the Father is the source and origin of all works, deeds and salvation which come to us through the mediatorship of his son. From Him comes all to us through our Lord Jesus Christ so that to God the Father may all the praise be directed. The Father is the sole origin and Creator of "all things." In contrast, Jesus is the Father's commissioned Lord Messiah through whom God's plan for the world is coming to completion. The whole Bible from cover to cover categorically states that God created the universe and all the ages with Jesus Christ at the center of his eternal purpose. Jesus is the diameter running all the way through.

Lord (kyrios) - Most people when they hear this title think immediately of God Almighty. However, God’s name is YHWH. This should not be confused with the title kyrios (Lord), which was used for Jesus throughout his whole ministry. Trinitarians will argue that this title of Jesus’ confirms his divinity, but even before his resurrection people addressed him as Lord. Why? For the same reason that many other people in the Bible and in his day were addressed as Lord. It was a title of authority and respect. Moses is referred to as lord in Numbers 32:27:

"The Gadites and Reubenites answered Moses, Your servants will do as you command, my lord."

1 Samuel 1:26 – "Hannah, his mother, approached Eli and said: Pardon, my lord! As you live, my lord, I am the woman who stood near you here."

1 Samuel 24:9 –"David stepped out of the cave, calling to Saul, My lord and my king."

As Scripture proves, Moses, Eli, and Saul are referred to as lord, but this does not mean that they are God. It is a title of authority and respect. There are many more verses like these. The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible volume 3 pg. 960 states:

Lord - its meaning signified nothing more than "sir," a title of respect, or to "master,"

There is an excellent example in John 4:11: Here the Samaritan woman has just met Jesus, he has not yet told her that he is the Messiah. They have just met, yet she addresses him as kyrios, which in the New American Bible is translated as "sir."

"The woman said to him, Sir (kyrios), you do not have a bucket and the cistern is deep."

The word in this passage is kyrios. It is applied to Jesus, and it is used as a term of respect, as "sir."

The Apostles used this title as a means of respect and also as "master." This is why Jesus is called Lord in the New Testament. He is our King, our master, our Lord. Like the Lord of a castle. He is the Lord of the kingdom of God.

This is why the simplistic Message Bible reads Master instead of Lord, as they mean the same thing! See below:

1Co 8:6 They say--again, quite rightly--that there is only one God the Father, that everything comes from him, and that he wants us to live for him. Also, they say that there is only one Master--Jesus the Messiah--and that everything is for his sake, including us. Yes. It's true.

One God (YHWH) the source of all and one Lord (King and Master) to rule the Kingdom of God and judge the world. Scripture teaches us this…

Acts 17:31 – "God has overlooked the times of ignorance, but now He demands that all people everywhere repent because He has established a day on which He will judge the world with justice through a MAN He has appointed, and He has provided confirmation for all by raising him from the dead.

God will judge the world through the one Lord/Master (“a Man”) He has appointed. This man Jesus will be our mediator. "For there is one God and one mediator also between God and men, the MAN Christ Jesus." (1 Tim2:5)

1 Corinthians 15: 21 –"For since death came through (dia) a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through (dia) a man". Yes, Dia a man (‘on account of’, ‘because of’).

I think you would agree that God is not a man, so I hope you are beginning to see by the verses above, God has appointed (Agency) a man to judge the world with justice, and the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man, and God chose this man to be His mediator between us and Him.


Job 9:32 "For He is not a man as I am that I may answer Him, That we may go to court together.

Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

It’s really not as hard as your making it. It only gets confusing when you try to make the man Jesus God! You know the "man" who God appointed to judge the world with justice.


Paul