The Danger of Universalism

[steve7150]

This is the same Paul that said the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers, so which is it, no excuse or blindness from the devil?

I'm not sure of where Paul may have said such a thing.

I thnk Paul in the verses you referenced is speaking of folks who knew God yet rejected him , meaning his brethren.

I would disagree. You mean only brethren can marvel and wonder about the birth of a baby, the moon in the sky during the day, or a beautiful sunset? Are you suggesting a "non-Jew" can't look at these things Steve and in someway respond to the Spirit that is calling them to believe?

Paul goes on to tell us Steve that when someone does the "work of the law" even though they were never given the law, they are a "law unto themselves" and their actions bear witness of the "law written on their hearts." Who does this in your eyes? Mr. Magoo?






"the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers" is 2nd Cor 4.4 and he said "the devil is the god of this world."
A baby,or moon or sunset may help you know about a creation of God or an attribute of God but only the jews knew God and that was a blessing and a curse at least for them. We do have a law written on our hearts since we know right from wrong therefore we are accountable for what we are given.

[RND]

"the devil blinds the minds of unbelievers" is 2nd Cor 4.4 and he said "the devil is the god of this world."

So then God is working in harmony with Satan to blind the minds of men? God is purposely making men lost?

"If the Good News we preach is veiled from anyone, it is a sign that they are perishing. Satan, the god of this evil world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God."

Sounds like.....

"For you are the children of your father the Devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies."

A baby,or moon or sunset may help you know about a creation of God or an attribute of God but only the jews knew God and that was a blessing and a curse at least for them.

Adam wasn't a Jew. Neither were Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Cyrus, Caleb, or Rahab and yet they all knew God, listened to God, and had faith in God - all without a net, or a Bible!

We do have a law written on our hearts since we know right from wrong therefore we are accountable for what we are given.

Ah, so then it's NOT just "Jews" that knew God after all.

[steve7150]

Adam wasn't a Jew. Neither were Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Joseph, Cyrus, Caleb, or Rahab and yet they all knew God, listened to God, and had faith in God - all without a net, or a Bible!

We do have a law written on our hearts since we know right from wrong therefore we are accountable for what we are given.

Ah, so then it's NOT just "Jews" that knew God after all.




Jacob and Joseph were jews but of course there are individual gentiles who knew God out of millions all together yet the whole nation of Israel should have known God.
And like i said knowing right from wrong would not qualify as knowing God. Atheists know right from wrong, ask them if they know God.

[RND]

Jacob and Joseph were jews.....

Nein, they were both "Hebrews."

....but of course there are individual gentiles who knew God out of millions all together yet the whole nation of Israel should have known God.

So obviously "blood" doesn't make one to know God.

And like i said knowing right from wrong would not qualify as knowing God.

According to Paul it is evidence of the "law" (law of God) written on the heart.

Atheists know right from wrong, ask them if they know God.

That's just it, they deny they "know" God but when they "do well" it is evidence of the "law of God" written on their hearts. Certainly you aren't suggesting that the Holy Spirit ever stops wooing them are you?

[steve7150]

That's just it, they deny they "know" God but when they "do well" it is evidence of the "law of God" written on their hearts. Certainly you aren't suggesting that the Holy Spirit ever stops wooing them are you?






Yes i am suggesting that. In Hebrews it says for those who tasted heaven yet fall away that it is impossible for them to return. I think impossible is not literally meant but such a warning sounds like the Holy Spirit will stop wooing. Also in the Sower and the Seed parable if we do not receive the Word into a soft heart the birds (Satan) will steal the seeds and take it away. And of course as Paul said, Satan "blinds the minds of unbelievers."
It's clear to me God allows Satan a lot of opportunities to perpetuate evil and since John called God "love" then allowing evil must have a loving purpose in God's grand plan which i think is much bigger then this life. One thing that occurs to me is that through evil we learn mercy,compassion,pity,love which are character traits we would not develop in a perfect world without evil. God did say "knowing good and evil they have become like us" and biblically speaking, knowing means experiencing therefore to ultimately become like God we need to experience evil and ultimately overcome it.
BTW the chasidem would argue with you regarding Jacob not being jewish. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel.

[RND]

Yes i am suggesting that. In Hebrews it says for those who tasted heaven yet fall away that it is impossible for them to return.

Hebrews 6. Paul is certainly describing the "rejection" of the Holy Spirit. But Paul is not saying the Holy Spirit completely withdraws itself from a persons life, nor is Paul describing those that have never enjoyed communion with the Holy Spirit. Paul is describing those that have come to a complete understanding of God and the process of forgiveness and repentance that completely reject that message later.

But again there is nothing here about the Holy Spirit stopping the work of returning the lost to the Lord or "rejecting people". Paul is specifically stating of a choice in the"rejection" of the Lord; of people "turning away from the Lord" not the withdraw of the Holy Spirit.

I think impossible is not literally meant but such a warning sounds like the Holy Spirit will stop wooing. Also in the Sower and the Seed parable if we do not receive the Word into a soft heart the birds (Satan) will steal the seeds and take it away. And of course as Paul said, Satan "blinds the minds of unbelievers."

Jesus never stops "knocking." People stop hearing the knock, or responding to it's call. The "thief on the cross" is a wonderful example. He heard the call well before he was condemned to die on the cross. He "answered the call" on the cross.

It's clear to me God allows Satan a lot of opportunities to perpetuate evil and since John called God "love" then allowing evil must have a loving purpose in God's grand plan which i think is much bigger then this life.

God certainly has "allowed" evil to occur, and it is obvious that God has used "evil" to His advantage, but that is quite different than suggesting God causes or

One thing that occurs to me is that through evil we learn mercy,compassion,pity,love which are character traits we would not develop in a perfect world without evil.

I think that's opposite of what is taught in scripture, and if it is true then Satan was indeed right after all. We don't need God to be like God because we can simply do want we want to be Gods.

God is not the author of confusion nor does He use "evil" in such a way. Satan does.

God did say "knowing good and evil they have become like us"

He didn't say it was a "good thing" that man had done opposite of His instructions.

and biblically speaking, knowing means experiencing therefore to ultimately become like God we need to experience evil and ultimately overcome it.

If that's the case why did God warn Adam what would happen to him if he disobeyed? And why the beef with Satan? I mean, after all, in the light you are painting Steve Satan didn't "lie" to Eve nor deceive them both. Incredible!

BTW the chasidem would argue with you regarding Jacob not being jewish. God even changed Jacob's name to Israel.

So let them argue? God changed Jacob's name to Israel is correct, God didn't change his name to Judah. I never worry about getting in a discussion with a Jew about the Torah.

[steve7150]

I think that's opposite of what is taught in scripture, and if it is true then Satan was indeed right after all. We don't need God to be like God because we can simply do want we want to be Gods.

God is not the author of confusion nor does He use "evil" in such a way. Satan does.


God did say "knowing good and evil they have become like us"


He didn't say it was a "good thing" that man had done opposite of His instructions.




Let's try to look at the bigger picture shall we? God created Satan or if not then God at the very least allowed Lucifer to continue after he fell. Then God allowed Satan who is the master deceiver in the universe to attempt to deceive Eve who had no experience with lies and deception. The master deceiver of the universe verses innocent Eve, is the result hard to predict, plus Eve's flesh and eyes and pride were tempting her before she even made a move toward the tree.
It's clear to me that God knew Adam and Eve would fall and it is God who cursed the ground and created the thorns and thistles that man would have to deal with. So there is no doubt God caused the fall because as i mentioned before he uses the experience of evil for good in the end.
You're right that God is not the author of confusion but he also told us to meditate on his Word.

[RND]

Let's try to look at the bigger picture shall we?

No objection there!

God created Satan or if not then God at the very least allowed Lucifer to continue after he fell.

Satan was "created perfect" and was never at odds with God until iniquity was found in him (read: iniquity is a mystery.) That means Satan was at "war" (Rev. 12) with God.

Then God allowed Satan who is the master deceiver in the universe to attempt to deceive Eve who had no experience with lies and deception.

Hence God's warning to Adam and Eve.

The master deceiver of the universe verses innocent Eve, is the result hard to predict, plus Eve's flesh and eyes and pride were tempting her before she even made a move toward the tree.

Was that God's doing? Was God at fault for allowing Eve to be tempted and deceived or did God give them ample warning ahead of time as to what would happen?

It's clear to me that God knew Adam and Eve would fall and it is God who cursed the ground and created the thorns and thistles that man would have to deal with.

Again, that doesn't mean God created "evil." He used "evil" to His advantage to save man, not destroy man.

So there is no doubt God caused the fall because as i mentioned before he uses the experience of evil for good in the end.

So "evil" is God's fault, no blame for the actions of Satan? What Bible do you read?

You're right that God is not the author of confusion but he also told us to meditate on his Word.

Well, meditate on this if you will. Try to find the verse(s) that describe God as creating all the evil in the world.

Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

[steve7150]

So "evil" is God's fault, no blame for the actions of Satan? What Bible do you read?


You're right that God is not the author of confusion but he also told us to meditate on his Word.


Well, meditate on this if you will. Try to find the verse(s) that describe God as creating all the evil in the world.








"Evil" is not God's fault, but it is God's tool. Satan does not run around on his own , he also is a tool of God. The politically correct view of God is to distance God from anything to do with evil and blame everything on man or Satan and believe that if only Adam did not sin everything would be perfect.
However it was God who cursed the ground and who created the thorns and thistles and made childbirth painful. Plus the hebrew word "ra" in actuality really means "evil" and that's why my Tanach translated by hebrew scholars says,
" I am God and there is no other , who forms light and creates darkness , who makes peace and creates evil. I am God , maker of all these." Isaiah 45.7
Also Paul said " For the creation was subjected to frustration not by it's own choice , but by the will of the one who subjected it, IN THE HOPE that the creation itself WILL BE LIBERATED from the bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8.20-21

[RND]

"Evil" is not God's fault, but it is God's tool.

God "uses" evil? Then God can be said to have "created" evil so then "evil" is indeed God's fault.

Satan does not run around on his own , he also is a tool of God. The politically correct view of God is to distance God from anything to do with evil and blame everything on man or Satan and believe that if only Adam did not sin everything would be perfect.

Well, anything short of "proof" that God uses Satan or cause "evil" to befall people ia mere speculation. Tell me Steve what's your take on Luke 13:1-Luke 13:5?

However it was God who cursed the ground and who created the thorns and thistles and made childbirth painful.

Why did God do this?

Plus the hebrew word "ra" in actuality really means "evil" and that's why my Tanach translated by hebrew scholars says,
" I am God and there is no other , who forms light and creates darkness , who makes peace and creates evil. I am God , maker of all these." Isaiah 45.7

That just "one" definition of ra' - bad or (as noun) evil (natural or moral):-- adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil((- favouredness), man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief(-vous), harm, heavy, hurt(-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome, + not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one), worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong. (Incl. feminine raaah; as adjective or noun.).

http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S7451

Also Paul said " For the creation was subjected to frustration not by it's own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, IN THE HOPE that the creation itself WILL BE LIBERATED from the bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God." Romans 8.20-21

Satan Steve. Paul was referring to Satan. See Luke 13:11-17.

Luk 13:11 And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up [herself]. 12 And when Jesus saw her, he called [her to him], and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. 13 And he laid [his] hands on her: and immediately she was made straight, and glorified God. 14 And the ruler of the synagogue answered with indignation, because that Jesus had healed on the sabbath day, and said unto the people, There are six days in which men ought to work: in them therefore come and be healed, and not on the sabbath day. 15 The Lord then answered him, and said, [Thou] hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose his ox or [his] ass from the stall, and lead [him] away to watering? 16 And ought not this woman, being a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan hath bound, lo, these eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day? 17 And when he had said these things, all his adversaries were ashamed: and all the people rejoiced for all the glorious things that were done by him.

Matthew Henry:

"The sufferings of the saints strike no deeper than the things of time, last no longer than the present time, are light afflictions, and but for a moment. How vastly different are the sentence of the word and the sentiment of the world, concerning the sufferings of this present time! Indeed the whole creation seems to wait with earnest expectation for the period when the children of God shall be manifested in the glory prepared for them. There is an impurity, deformity, and infirmity, which has come upon the creature by the fall of man. There is an enmity of one creature to another. And they are used, or abused rather, by men as instruments of sin. Yet this deplorable state of the creation is in hope. God will deliver it from thus being held in bondage to man's depravity. The miseries of the human race, through their own and each other's wickedness, declare that the world is not always to continue as it is. Our having received the first-fruits of the Spirit, quickens our desires, encourages our hopes, and raises our expectations. Sin has been, and is, the guilty cause of all the suffering that exists in the creation of God. It has brought on the woes of earth; it has kindled the flames of hell. As to man, not a tear has been shed, not a groan has been uttered, not a pang has been felt, in body or mind, that has not come from sin. This is not all; sin is to be looked at as it affects the glory of God. Of this how fearfully regardless are the bulk of mankind! Believers have been brought into a state of safety; but their comfort consists rather in hope than in enjoyment. From this hope they cannot be turned by the vain expectation of finding satisfaction in the things of time and sense. We need patience, our way is rough and long; but He that shall come, will come, though he seems to tarry."

Let it go Steve....you couldn't be any more wrong in suggesting God is responsible for "evil" and that He uses it as a "tool."