Revelation -- Where is the End?

[mikew]

Question for preterists (even full prets), amils, postmils...
I don't see where Revelation speaks of a final end of all things.

Revelation 20 appears to be mostly parenthetical, taking an excursion from the near events of the other chapters. So John was saying "by the way, Satan does have an end and those that had died by the timing of the previous 19 chapters would be raised -- all after the 1000 years -- and there would be a deception of the nations to come against the Chrisitians."

In this sense also the "dead" that were raised were unbelievers -- since believers were instead said to be asleep, never dead.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (KJVR --e-sword.net)

Furthermore, in this chapter the camp of saints never died and hence could not be raised from the dead. In their situation, the camp of saints appears to be able to continue its existence on earth.

Worse yet, if Rev 21 and 22 are assumed to be events subsequent to Rev 20 (but there's a problem even if Rev 21 and 22 occur before Rev 20), John showed the nations still to exist and be healed by leaves of the tree of life

Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nation (KJVR --e-sword.net)

or the nations would come bring their glory to the New Jerusalem
[quoteRev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. (ESV --e-sword.net) [/quote]

So the nations are seen to just continue in existence, as far as the Book of Revelation is concerned.

Is there an end of nations and earthly kings contemplated in Revelation?
Or is Revelation still just about middle-of-time events?

[anochria]

I guess I see the reference to the healing of nations as speaking of "people groups/ cultures" not so much as continuing principalities. But I'm not in a place to do a word study at the moment. Someone want to chime in on that?

I personally see Rev. 21 and 22 and referring to things which have already begun but that find their final fulfillment only after the (yet future) events of the end of Rev. 20.

But I see the above reference as an indication that God will take this present world and cleanse/heal/ liberate/ transform it, rather than completely destroy it and start from scratch.

[psychohmike]

Hey Mike...What is the "End" in your question referring to?

[mikew]

Hey Mike...What is the "End" in your question referring to?

The post can be resolved to these two questions:
Is there an end of nations and earthly kings contemplated in Revelation?
Or is Revelation still just about middle-of-time events?

Other ideas could be presented though.
One of the other questions in the OP was regarding what happens to Christians after they were encircled by the armies of Gog and Magog.

I know that many full preterists see no more ends. Maybe that is why you asked your question.

[mikew]

I guess I see the reference to the healing of nations as speaking of "people groups/ cultures" not so much as continuing principalities. But I'm not in a place to do a word study at the moment. Someone want to chime in on that?

Due to various similarities between the Tree of Life, the tree of Dan 4, and the Mustard Seed parable, with consideration given also to Isa 9:6-7, I would say that the healing of nations was largely a contemplation of the peace that would increase among the nations under the kingdom of God. God does act within the political realm too. How else does He bring all things under subjection to Christ?

I personally see Rev. 21 and 22 and referring to things which have already begun but that find their final fulfillment only after the (yet future) events of the end of Rev. 20.

So are you saying there isn't exactly an end of ends described?

But I see the above reference as an indication that God will take this present world and cleanse/heal/ liberate/ transform it, rather than completely destroy it and start from scratch.

Yes. The plan of God appears to be a plan to restore creation. Then the restoration is more like the 6 million dollar man -- better than before, stronger, faster ... and whatver.

[mtymousie]

Hey Mike...What is the "End" in your question referring to?

The post can be resolved to these two questions:
Is there an end of nations and earthly kings contemplated in Revelation?
Or is Revelation still just about middle-of-time events?

Other ideas could be presented though.
One of the other questions in the OP was regarding what happens to Christians after they were encircled by the armies of Gog and Magog.

I know that many full preterists see no more ends. Maybe that is why you asked your question.

From a preterist perspective, I believe the Revelation, like the rest of "all things written", was indeed completely fulfilled within the time frame given by Jesus. It was "the end" of the Jewish "heaven and earth" and the beginning of the glorious kingdom of God which has NO end.

preteristmouse

[mikew]

Hey Mike...What is the "End" in your question referring to?

The post can be resolved to these two questions:
Is there an end of nations and earthly kings contemplated in Revelation?
Or is Revelation still just about middle-of-time events?

Other ideas could be presented though.
One of the other questions in the OP was regarding what happens to Christians after they were encircled by the armies of Gog and Magog.

I know that many full preterists see no more ends. Maybe that is why you asked your question.

From a preterist perspective, I believe the Revelation, like the rest of "all things written", was indeed completely fulfilled within the time frame given by Jesus. It was "the end" of the Jewish "heaven and earth" and the beginning of the glorious kingdom of God which has NO end.

preteristmouse

But the Book of Revelation wasn't written yet when Jesus spoke those words.
Now you just contradicted yourself. If all things were fulfilled, then how can the kingdom be fulfilled if there is no end to it?

[mtymousie]

But the Book of Revelation wasn't written yet when Jesus spoke those words.
Now you just contradicted yourself.

No contradiction whatsoever, friend. Using your logic above, NOTHING in the New Testament would be fulfilled before that generation passed away since NOTHING had been written yet while He was speaking. Jesus very clearly PROPHECIED that "all things written" would be fulfilled BEFORE that generation passed away! He did NOT in any shape, form, or fashion limit "all things written" to only those things written before He was speaking.

If all things were fulfilled, then how can the kingdom be fulfilled if there is no end to it?

"So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." (Luke 21:31) The everlasting kingdom of God came in 70 AD and fulfilled the prophecy of Jesus and a whole slew of other prophets.

preteristmouse

[mikew]

But the Book of Revelation wasn't written yet when Jesus spoke those words.
Now you just contradicted yourself.

No contradiction whatsoever, friend. Using your logic above, NOTHING in the New Testament would be fulfilled before that generation passed away since NOTHING had been written yet while He was speaking. Jesus very clearly PROPHECIED that "all things written" would be fulfilled BEFORE that generation passed away! He did NOT in any shape, form, or fashion limit "all things written" to only those things written before He was speaking.

So you think Jesus was speaking about His words rather than the Prophets? There was the written word by that point in time. Even Jesus quoted Isaiah.
Its a new aspect of full preterism that I didn't realize -- that "all things written" meant things not yet written.

If all things were fulfilled, then how can the kingdom be fulfilled if there is no end to it?

"So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand." (Luke 21:31) The everlasting kingdom of God came in 70 AD and fulfilled the prophecy of Jesus and a whole slew of other prophets.

Its fine that the kingdom came in AD70, and good to hear you hold to that view rather than the kingdom coming earlier. So indeed you can say that the kingdom came in accord with prophecy but its more difficult to say that the kingdom has been completely fulfilled. How can eternity be fulfilled at any moment in time?

Now do you see Revelation ending with the encircling of the camp of the saints?
Do you see any end of the existence of political rulers (or nations) doing their own will?

[RND]

The everlasting kingdom of God came in 70 AD....

Um, hasn't the "kingdom of God" always existed?

Psa 9:4 For thou hast maintained my right and my cause; thou satest in the throne judging right.

Psa 11:4 The LORD [is] in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne [is] in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.

Psa 45:6 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven [is] my throne, and the earth [is] my footstool: where [is] the house that ye build unto me? and where [is] the place of my rest?

Pro 20:28 Mercy and truth preserve the king: and his throne is upholden by mercy.

Mark 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom.

All of these verses seem to indicate the past tense before Jesus, the presence tense in Jesus' day and even continuing in our day and age.