Consulting or calling up the dead

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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:58 pm

SteveF wrote:RND, I think you’re missing what Steve is trying to say.
All the name calling must have thrown me off!
Here’s what Steve wrote to welcome you to the forum back in December

Hi David,
It's good to have you input. I look forward to more discussion of the conditional immortality position (and any other subjects you may post about).


I think he means it!
Maybe he did....at one time. But recently it's been very negative with uncalled for personal attacks and insults.
I don’t think Steve is afraid of being shown up. He actually spends more time reading the material of those with whom he has a different position….so he can learn. I'm not aware of anyone on this forum that agrees with Steve on everything. In fact, a number seem to disagree on quite a variety of issues.

I think Steve, and I can speak for myself here as well, would like dialogue. Often that is what’s lacking. Let me make a potentially lame attempt at an illustration:

Let’s say you hold to a Young Earth Creation position and I hold to a Theistic Evolution position. I might start a thread presenting my arguments from scripture for TE. Then you respond with your explanation from scripture in support of YEC and engage some of my ideas at the same time. If my response to your explanation was merely “I’ve already spelled out what the Bible says on that issue” and posted links to a couple of long articles defending TE would you find that satisfying? Wouldn’t you prefer if I actually showed that I understood what you were trying to say by engaging the points you were making?

I know you don’t do this all the time but whenever you do, as Steve said, it can discourage some from dialoguing with you. I only write this RND because I, and I’m sure others, would like to dialogue with you more.
Steve, I really appreciate very much what you are saying here. I truly do. I appreciate in fact every time you have offered a suggestion or expressed you opinion regarding any particular matter. And it is certainly true I could probably be more honed in my debating style or how I dialogue with people. At the same time I think it is unnecessary to use such harsh language and childish name calling regarding how another person dialogues with another, which is exactly what Steve did. I noticed that these attacks seem to increase the more Steve's arguments held less and less weight considering the mountain of evidence that was presented to him. Instead of making a point and using scripture to solidify that point he reduced himself to shameless name calling.
PS...just to keep things in perspective. Although many here, including myself, find topics like soul sleep interesting, we do need to realise its relative importance...which is not high. Sometimes we can "strain at a gnat and swallow a camel".
Yeah, I understand your point and if I may I would certainly disagree with you. I see the state of the dead question vitally important for understanding the future of this world and the definitely signs we need to look for to indicate the deception that is sure to come. Satan we are told can come in the form of a "messanger of light" and because the "coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders." If we are not sure exactly what is taught in scripture how do we know for sure we won't be fooled?

I know people roll their eye when I make a point, especially when I use the writings of Ellen White to do so. But read carefully the warning contained here:

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of spiritualism, the latter creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience.

As spiritualism more closely imitates the nominal Christianity of the day, it has greater power to deceive and ensnare. Satan himself is converted, after the modern order of things. He will appear in the character of an angel of light. Through the agency of spiritualism, miracles will be wrought,the sick will be healed, and many undeniable wonders will be performed. And as the spirits will profess faith in the Bible, and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power.

The line of distinction between professed Christians and the ungodly is now hardly distinguishable. Church members love what the world loves and are ready to join with them, and Satan determines to unite them in one body and thus strengthen his cause by sweeping all into the ranks of spiritualism. Papists, who boast of miracles as a certain sign of the true church, will be readily deceived by this wonder-working power; and Protestants, having cast away the shield of truth, will also be deluded. Papists, Protestants, and worldlings will alike accept the form of godliness without the power, and they will see in this union a grand movement for the conversion of the world and the ushering in of the long-expected millennium." - The Great Controversy page 589


The reason I offer this quote is the obvious trends that have been taking place in the country in just the last few years. The proliferation of television shows about ghost chasing, haunted houses, poltergeists, et al have risen dramatically in just the last few years. I did not use this quotation to say, "see this was prophesied by EGW" because it wasn't, it was clearly prophesied by the scriptures. We are in the throws of the process aimed at "normalizing" what God considers to be an abomination. <----end of rant.

Anyway Steve, thanks again for your comments and instruction which was very constructive.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by steve » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:43 am

An explanation concerning the extraordinary exchange between RND and myself in the last three pages:

I have gone back and re-read my posts to which RND took such great objection. It seems to have begun because I had called a particular interpretation of poetic passages (which happened to be his interpretation) naive and flat. I did not call any person naive nor flat. I was critiquing an interpretation. Since RND took personal offense and began accusing me of unkindness—and then treated us to another barrage of worthless and irrelevant responses, in my next post, I used the word "childish," which he surely does not think an inappropriate description, since he used the same of me in a subsequent post (which, by the way, did not offend me).

I could not figure out why the shrillness of his responses kept escalating. What I saw was that I had made an impersonal, exegetical critique of his biblical interpretation, which apparently so made him see red, that he was incapable of writing a rational line thereafter. I kept trying to point out to him that his arguments were evasive and entirely missing the point, which only caused him to generate more of the same. I have seen nothing like it since popeman's pre-ban behavior. I finally gave up on trying to reach him. Perhaps someone else can do so.

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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:44 am

steve wrote:As for the original post, 1 Samuel 28:12-20 is explicit in declaring that the medium called up "Samuel" and not an impostor. It is not ambiguous:
When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice...And the king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What did you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth."... And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

Now Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do."

Then Samuel said: "So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines."

Immediately Saul fell full length on the ground, and was dreadfully afraid because of the words of Samuel.
Actually Steve, in my mind, the story is quite ambiguous and not at all conclusive as to whether the demon the witch brought forth was indeed Samuel. And I'll bet you aren't the least surprised! :D Hopefully this post uses enough scripture and reasonable logic not to be considered as coming off a kiddie ride or full of naivete! :D

First off the demon Samuel "comes up" indicating that it is not of heaven or of God but it is from "Sheol" the place of the dead. Sheol is never seen as being anywhere but "under the earth."

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Pro 7:27 Her house [is] the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Second, Saul never physically saw Samuel he only "perceived" it was Samuel. Saul had to ask the witch ""What does he look like?" verse - 14. Also, one crucial point that must be made is that we are told in the narrative that the witch said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” But we are told in scripture that only God and Jesus have the power to resurrect the dead and give life.

Hsa 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
The apparition correctly prophesied that Israel would be defeated the next day, and that Saul and his sons would die in the battle (the mark of a true prophet. Would a demon know the secret counsels of God?).
The pronouncement of death doesn't have to come specifically from God in that scripture tell us that the Devil has the "the power of death." Also, Satan and his demons can be "transformed into "angels of light" (messengers of truth).
The speaker is continually referred to as Samuel in the narrative, and his words are called "the words of Samuel." Either 1) the witch called up Samuel, or 2) the inspired writer was deceived into thinking that she did so.
Or three she brought forth a demon that deceived Saul. Saul was in the last throws of being estranged from God and in fact God withdrew Himself from Saul (He (Saul) inquired of the Lord, but the Lord did not answer him by dreams or Urim or prophets), ("God has turned away from me"). Saul was desperate for an answer. Why would God, who had refused to speak to Saul any further, speak to Saul through a method that God Himself called an abomination? The witch knew she was putting her life on the line for Saul and could have been killed for what she had done (“Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?”).

None of that seems to make sense in that light.
From past dialogues with Paidion, I would expect him to take the second theory. I don't know whether or not RND will go that route as well. I dare say to any reader, please pay careful attention to any post seeking to argue that it was NOT Samuel, and see whether they present any scripture that says it was not actually Samuel as explicitly as these verses say that it was Samuel.


Steve, I appreciate you comments here but wouldn't it still be preferable to check your beliefs about what the story of the witch of Endor is saying with scripture as well?
We may be able to witness at this forum a classic case of a theological presupposition being employed to trump the actual words of scripture.
[/quote]

Maybe. But shouldn't an affirmative position regarding the validity of the witch of Endor be substantiated with scripture as well or is this simply a case of, "The Bible said it therefore I believe it" theology?
Last edited by RND on Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by steve » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:52 am

I don't suppose I could have asked for a more prompt confirmation of my prediction about responses.

The only scriptures relevant to the case that are mentioned in the above post are references to Sheol being "below"— which, to my knowledge, no one has ever doubted. That is where the shade of Samuel would be resting (according to several Old Testament passages I gave in a previous post, but which my correspondent apparently never looked up), and that is the direction from which he would be expected to come.

To say that I presented no scripture about the story of the the witch of Endor is stunning. I presented and examined the whole scriptural story and pointed out that, in every place, the passage says that the visitor was Samuel (not a demon) and that there is nothing in the passage even to hint at an alternative view.

The fact that Satan can (and sometimes does) appear as an angel of light tells us nothing of this passage, since no angel of light played any role in the story. If such an angel had appeared, it would not necessarily mean that it was the devil, since real angels sometimes appear as well. Of course, the point has no relevance to the case before us.

The scriptures about Christ having authority to resurrect the dead do not overlap the subject matter of this discussion, since no one here has credited the witch with the power to resurrect the dead. I should hope that, if one has read the posts throughout this thread from the beginning, it would be clear that what is being discussed here is not the resurrection of the dead but the question of the reality of disembodied spirits. I have seen no scriptures presented that deny the possibility of disembodied spirits, and the present passage and others (e.g., Job 26:5/ Isa.14:9, 15-17/ Ezek.32:21/ Acts 7:59/2 Cor.5:8; 12:2-3/ Phil.1:23/ Heb.12:23/ Rev.6:9) have been presented to indicate that the Bible may well recognize the phenomenon. For many years, I myself have been uncertain of what the Bible teaches about this, and do not know if the matter will ever be settled for me—but I know bad argumentation when I hear it.

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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:04 am

steve wrote:Wow! Talk about instant confirmation!
The only scriptures relevant to the case that are mentioned are references to Sheol being "below," which no one has ever doubted, to my knowledge. That is where Samuel would be, and that is where he came up from.
So the scriptures that confirm that only God and Christ have the power to resurrect life are what exactly?
To say that I presented not scripture about the story of the the witch of Endor is typical.
Who's misreading who now? I never said you didn't use scripture, I suggested that just because you hold the affirmative position doesn't preclude you from validating your beliefs with other scriptures. Do you have any verses that could confirm that Samuel was indeed brought from the grave or do we just use the ones in 1 Sam 28 and leave it at that?
I brought up the whole scriptural passage and pointed out that it, in every place, said the visitor was Samuel (not a demon) and that there was nothing in the passage even to hint at an alternative view.
And I brought a shotgun full of scripture that shoots huge holes in your belief that "this is what is says, period, end of discussion" position.
The fact that Satan can (and sometimes does) appear as an angel of light tells us nothing of this passage, since there were no apparent angels playing any role in the story.
How do you figure? If indeed the apparition of Samuel was an evil spirit (an I believe it was) that would mean that a demonic "messenger" read: angel was at work. This "messenger of light" was able to convey an absolute fact to Saul. Which is what "angels of light" seem to want to do.
Last edited by RND on Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by steve » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:06 am

My post was being edited when RND posted his last reply, which is why his pastes from my post are not the same as the present version.

By the way, here was my prediction:
I dare say to any reader, please pay careful attention to any post seeking to argue that it was NOT Samuel, and see whether they present any scripture that says it was not actually Samuel as explicitly as these verses say that it was Samuel. We may be able to witness at this forum a classic case of a theological presupposition being employed to trump the actual words of scripture.
Is Steve also among the prophets?

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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:06 am

steve wrote:I dare say to any reader, please pay careful attention to any post seeking to argue that it was NOT Samuel, and see whether they present any scripture that says it was not actually Samuel as explicitly as these verses say that it was Samuel. We may be able to witness at this forum a classic case of a theological presupposition being employed to trump the actual words of scripture.
Let me see if I understand this correctly. You're essentially saying that those who insist that the witch of Endor brought up a demon and not Samuel are required to present scripture that says it was not actually Samuel. Fair enough. I think I did that, many times in fact.

However, what is confusing me is why aren't those that hold your position required to do the same and offer scripture to support their position? Or, should we just take what 1 Samuel 28 says without questioning it?

I have a problem with this notion and here's why. Jael the wife of Heber took a tent peg and hammered it into Sisera's head while he was sleeping. Is this a true picture of how God wants us to interact with our enemies? Well, if we were never to look at another verse of scripture then I suppose we could have that opinion. But if we look at other scripture, we can see that God actually requires of us to act justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with God. Even deeper than that is Jesus telling us to "love our enemies." Is hammering a tent peg through someone's head the ultimate expression of love?

I don't quite understand the logic in insisting that those that take one side of a position have to use scripture to justify their position, but those on the other side of the argument, because they quoted a story in scripture, don't have to use scripture to solidify their point. To me that smacks of a "it says it, I believe it" type argument. Something I might expect from 4th graders frankly, but not grown adults.
Is Steve also among the prophets?
:D No!
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by SteveF » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:39 am

RND wrote
But we are told in scripture that only God and Jesus have the power to resurrect the dead and give life.
There is nothing in the passage that actually says the woman brought up Samuel. The woman doesn’t seem to be in control since she was shocked and afraid by what was happening.

1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."


It doesn’t seem to be just another day at the office for her. Things were happening that she didn’t seem to expect. I’m inclined to think that God directly intervened as a rebuke to Saul.

I also don’t understand the point of a demon using the following words:

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."


Where’s the deception and what would be the point of a demon accentuating the need to obey God?

Interestingly, here's another situation in the Bible where God is sovereign over a situation even when divination is used.

Eze 21:21 For the king of Babylon stands at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination. He shakes the arrows; he consults the teraphim; he looks at the liver.
Eze 21:22 Into his right hand comes the divination for Jerusalem, to set battering rams, to open the mouth with murder, to lift up the voice with shouting, to set battering rams against the gates, to cast up mounds, to build siege towers.
Eze 21:23 But to them it will seem like a false divination. They have sworn solemn oaths, but he brings their guilt to remembrance, that they may be taken
.

I don't think God uses divination, but he certainly seems to do things in spite of it.

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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by RND » Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:17 am

Steve I appreciate your post and the points you bring up. Of course, it leads me to ask more questions.
SteveF wrote:RND wrote
But we are told in scripture that only God and Jesus have the power to resurrect the dead and give life.
There is nothing in the passage that actually says the woman brought up Samuel. The woman doesn’t seem to be in control since she was shocked and afraid by what was happening.

1Sa 28:11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" He said, "Bring up Samuel for me."
1Sa 28:12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul."
1Sa 28:13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid. What do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a god coming up out of the earth."


It doesn’t seem to be just another day at the office for her. Things were happening that she didn’t seem to expect. I’m inclined to think that God directly intervened as a rebuke to Saul.
Steve, in the KJV it says that, in his disguised form, Saul was asked by the witch, "Whom shall I bring up unto thee?" In other versions it says: "Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?" - NLT, and “Whom shall I bring up for you?” - NIV.

The witch wasn't surprised or shocked at the demon she brought up, but that Saul had deceived her. She even said, why she was surprised and shocked: "Why hast thou deceived me? for thou [art] Saul." She wasn't in control because of Saul's deceit, not anything the demon had done. In fact, she seems rather confident to me, "Well, whose spirit do you want me to call up?" This confidence would seem to be a job requirement of being a "medium." :D Showmanship! :D

Also Steve she initially asked Saul: “Surely you know what Saul has done. He has cut off the mediums and spiritists from the land. Why have you set a trap for my life to bring about my death?” So she was surprised and shocked because she was doing something Saul had outlawed, and she didn't know that the man was Saul who was attempting to have her do something for which she could be killed. Saul then told her, “As surely as the Lord lives, you will not be punished for this.” She wasn't surprised at anything but the deceit of Saul.

Lastly you mentioned that you think that God directly intervened to rebuke Saul. OK, fair enough. But you also said at the end of this post, "I don't think God uses divination, but he certainly seems to do things in spite of it." Well, this is confusing to me. On one hand you say that God intervened, but doesn't use divination. Yet clearly we have an instance of divination at work. Do you believe it was God, speaking through Samuel, that was speaking to Saul? Or that God actually called up Samuel and not the witch? If so, why would God who refused to answer Saul by either by dreams or by the Urim or by the prophets speak to Saul?
I also don’t understand the point of a demon using the following words:

1Sa 28:16 And Samuel said, "Why then do you ask me, since the LORD has turned from you and become your enemy?
1Sa 28:17 The LORD has done to you as he spoke by me, for the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David.
1Sa 28:18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day.
1Sa 28:19 Moreover, the LORD will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me. The LORD will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines."


Where’s the deception and what would be the point of a demon accentuating the need to obey God?
I think it's clear that it was Saul guilty of deception and not the witch or the demon. As I mentioned in my other post, demons can be used as "messengers of light."
Interestingly, here's another situation in the Bible where God is sovereign over a situation even when divination is used.

Eze 21:21 For the king of Babylon stands at the parting of the way, at the head of the two ways, to use divination. He shakes the arrows; he consults the teraphim; he looks at the liver.
Eze 21:22 Into his right hand comes the divination for Jerusalem, to set battering rams, to open the mouth with murder, to lift up the voice with shouting, to set battering rams against the gates, to cast up mounds, to build siege towers.
Eze 21:23 But to them it will seem like a false divination. They have sworn solemn oaths, but he brings their guilt to remembrance, that they may be taken
.

I don't think God uses divination, but he certainly seems to do things in spite of it.
Steve, God is sovereign over every situation no matter what sin is being committed! :D Whether it is disobedience in the Garden, disobedience in the wilderness, or disobedience regarding divination God is sovereign. Our sin has no impact on His sovereignty!
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead

Post by steve7150 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:43 pm

Speaking only for myself i'm very interested in this topic and to me the purpose of the forum is primarily to exchange ideas. What people do with these ideas is their own private matter. Anyway,

Since there was dialogue on OT scripture regarding the state of the dead, what did Jesus think?

In Luke 20.38 we read of Jesus responding to the Sadducees regarding Abraham,Isaac and Jacob.
"He is not the God of the dead, BUT of the living, for all live to him."
According to Josephus the doctrine of the Sadducees is that souls die with the body. What's interesting is that Jesus is speaking of God and the "dead" in the present tense not in a future tense.
Jesus could have said "he is the God of the dead and the living" if he wanted to validate that the apparent dead are actually dead.

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