Consulting or calling up the dead
Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
RND,
Michelle is certainly correct in saying that Jesus never made the disciples His equals. Even in the passage you cited, where He called them friends, He said, "You are my friends if you do whatever I command you." This is not a friendship of equals. It is more like the friendship that Michelle described between her and her boss.
Jesus is the Lord. We are His subjects. There is not equality there, even if Jesus lowered Himself to behave toward us as a servant. He never stepped down from His place of command to become a mere "chum."
Michelle is certainly correct in saying that Jesus never made the disciples His equals. Even in the passage you cited, where He called them friends, He said, "You are my friends if you do whatever I command you." This is not a friendship of equals. It is more like the friendship that Michelle described between her and her boss.
Jesus is the Lord. We are His subjects. There is not equality there, even if Jesus lowered Himself to behave toward us as a servant. He never stepped down from His place of command to become a mere "chum."
Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
Hi RND, there are a lot of things I'm trying to make sense of in the scripture. This is one that I personally don't have a problem with.Because it would make God to a "Do as I say, not as I do kinda God." Why would God communicate using a method He called and abomination? It makes no sense Steve.
It seems to me that the main reason divination was forbidden was council was being sought outside of God. Although the act itself was forbidden, the main reason it was forbidden is explained in these verses:
Deu 18:14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this.
Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers--it is to him you shall listen—
Seeking divination is being contrasted with listening to God. God was not guilty of seeking out council that was not of God (that makes no sense what I just said but I think you get the point). I merely think he interjected in the situation. I see God as not guilty in this situation much like an undercover police officer is not guilty of crime during a sting operation. To top it off, it's God prerogative to do as he chooses.
Rev 2:23Do we have any instance where Jesus Himself kills and takes life?
Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.steve wrote:RND,
Michelle is certainly correct in saying that Jesus never made the disciples His equals. Even in the passage you cited, where He called them friends, He said, "You are my friends if you do whatever I command you." This is not a friendship of equals.
Jesus is the Lord. We are His subjects. There is not equality there, even if Jesus lowered Himself to behave toward us as a servant. He never stepped down from His place of command to become a mere "chum."
You're right Steve. Jesus equated those that do the will of the Father, doing what is enjoined (Sermon on the Mount) as being a close relative.
John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Who exactly did Jesus die for Steve? His friends. The Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world obviously views His relationship with us differently than we are inclined to view our relationship with him.
That said, I really have no idea with what your post aims to achieve with me. Jesus never "Lorded" Himself over anyone. He was humble and full of compassion. In fact, Jesus taught His disciples exactly what He did. That the greatest shall be least thus making the least the greatest. Mat 20:24-28.
I know few bosses that would willingly choose to have a relationship with their subordinates as Jesus did for His. He is the God that washes feet, that stoops down to act as a servant to teach His disciples the meaning of true love towards other men. More so He did this willingly. God did this. Sorry Steve, I don't see Jesus as my boss....I see Him as a friend.It is more like the friendship that Michelle described between her and her boss.
There is a post I started where we can talk about the incredible weakness of God. http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2586
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
I'm trying to understand scripture as well and I have a huge problem with the notion that God spoke to Samuel as a evil spirit.SteveF wrote:Hi RND, there are a lot of things I'm trying to make sense of in the scripture. This is one that I personally don't have a problem with.
Steve, in the verses you quoted I would certainly say that divination is NOT being contrasted with listening to God. The scriptures tell me that the gentiles use these methods to talk to evil spirits. God speaks to people through His prophets, not through mediums.It seems to me that the main reason divination was forbidden was council was being sought outside of God. Although the act itself was forbidden, the main reason it was forbidden is explained in these verses:
Deu 18:14 for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this.
Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers--it is to him you shall listen—
Seeking divination is being contrasted with listening to God. God was not guilty of seeking out council that was not of God (that makes no sense what I just said but I think you get the point). I merely think he interjected in the situation. I see God as not guilty in this situation much like an undercover police officer is not guilty of crime during a sting operation. To top it off, it's God prerogative to do as he chooses.
Isa 8:18 Here am I, and the children the Lord has given me. We are signs and symbols in Israel from the Lord Almighty, who dwells on Mount Zion. 19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Maybe I should have been much more specific. In the Gospels do we have any instance where Jesus Himself kills and takes life? BTW Steve, Revelation 2:23 is referring to this "symbolically" or "metaphorically."Rev 2:23
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth
Does Jesus really have a physical sword in His mouth?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
You Are Israel
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
RND, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. The verse you cited actually solidifies what I'm trying to say. In Isaiah 8 he's showing them how foolish they are to seek council from any source but God (see underlined). Whether you seek out advice from a spiritist or simply follow ungodly council PS 1:1 it's wrong. That's the main reason for not seeking out divination in my mind. The medium, to me, is incidental in this situation. The reason it was wrong to go to a medium is because they were giving council that was not from God. Therefore, God didn't do anything wrong since he was the one that interjected in the situation and had Samuel rebuke Saul for, among other things, seeking out a witch.Steve, in the verses you quoted I would certainly say that divination is NOT being contrasted with listening to God. The scriptures tell me that the gentiles use these methods to talk to evil spirits. God speaks to people through His prophets, not through mediums.
Isa 8:18 Here am I, and the children the Lord has given me. We are signs and symbols in Israel from the Lord Almighty, who dwells on Mount Zion. 19 When men tell you to consult mediums and spiritists, who whisper and mutter, should not a people inquire of their God? Why consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.
Just so we don't miss the forest for the trees, is there anything in the passage itself that indicates to you it wasn't Samuel. Why did the scripture say it was Samuel and not a deceiving spirit etc... Why did the woman scream out if she was expecting Samuel to appear? What about the fulfilled prophecy? In my mind it seems pretty clear that it was Samuel. Can you show me, in the passage, any reason to think otherise? I have no personal agenda either way.
Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
RND,RND wrote:Michelle, you stated "How can God commit murder? He has the right to give life and take it, so when he does take a life, it's not unlawful, besides he's God... not our equal" and this was why I inquired if Jesus ever killed seeing that He was "No, not Jesus while he ministered here on earth. Sorry, RND, but I don't understand what your point is with that question.![]()
Immanuel."
Jesus was the creator of life.
I'm still trying to understand what you are getting at, and the best I can do is to assume you've conflated a couple or more doctrines to come up with something kind of messy. You posed this question to me: "Do we have any instance where Jesus Himself kills and takes life?" which seems more like a retort you might give if I said, "I'm going to take out my neighbor. She's driving me crazy and I think I have the right to make decisions over life and death." Then you might ask if Jesus had responded that way. You're borrowing on the idea that we are, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to become more and more Christlike and murder certainly didn't characterize Jesus' ministry. But that begs the question. My argument is that God has prerogatives that we don't. Christ didn't kill anyone during his ministry, but, as you said, he was the creator of life. Doesn't that give him the power over life and death?
There were other things that Christ could have done, but didn't. He could have turned the rocks into bread. He could have called 12 legions of angels to aid him during his arrest. He might have been able to take a pass on the cup of suffering that he drank from. Just because he didn't do something it doesn't mean he couldn't.
God does give and take life. Here are just a few examples mention in scripture where God said he took lives: everyone alive except Noah and his family; the firstborn of Egypt; Nadab and Abihu; Korah and his company; Ananias and Sapphira...
The other day, you posted that quote from Ellen G. White that made me realize that you have to defend your disbelief in the immortality of the soul because of your concern that this belief gives a toehold to Satan for further deception. That explains your vehemence in arguing your case from all sides, but you need to be careful that your arguments are logical and scriptural.
I really think it is misguided to believe that the two doctrines Ellen G. White warned about will lead to wholesale deception. This quote, however, seems to border on desiring to make yourself equal to God, which was the original deception that led to Adam and Eve's sin and the fall:
Sorry Steve, I don't see Jesus as my boss....I see Him as a friend.
Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
I was attempting to explain why God does not use abominable things to get His point across.Michelle wrote:I'm still trying to understand what you are getting at, and the best I can do is to assume you've conflated a couple or more doctrines to come up with something kind of messy.RND wrote:Michelle, you stated "How can God commit murder? He has the right to give life and take it, so when he does take a life, it's not unlawful, besides he's God... not our equal" and this was why I inquired if Jesus ever killed seeing that He was "No, not Jesus while he ministered here on earth. Sorry, RND, but I don't understand what your point is with that question.![]()
Immanuel."
Jesus was the creator of life.
You posed this question to me: "Do we have any instance where Jesus Himself kills and takes life?" which seems more like a retort you might give if I said, "I'm going to take out my neighbor. She's driving me crazy and I think I have the right to make decisions over life and death." Then you might ask if Jesus had responded that way.
Michelle, the point I was making is that God does not use methods of communicating that He Himself has called abominable. God is not a "do as I say, not as I do God." You suggested that God can kill. No disagreement there. But does He still? That's why I asked if Jesus ever killed. Because it was Jesus who said, "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth. But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also."
God also changes the "rules." "Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth" used to be a rule, it's not anymore.
Sure it does! And that's the point Michelle. He has the power of life and death and yet doesn't use it to get His way or to teach His "friends!" He leads by example not by rule or force.You're borrowing on the idea that we are, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to become more and more Christlike and murder certainly didn't characterize Jesus' ministry. But that begs the question. My argument is that God has prerogatives that we don't. Christ didn't kill anyone during his ministry, but, as you said, he was the creator of life. Doesn't that give him the power over life and death?
There is much comparison between the Jesus of the OT and Jesus in the flesh. Why? Because humans misunderstood God greatly in the OT. The people who struggled with worshiping false gods, didn't like the true God's ideas. They ignored, disobeyed and complained about God's ways. This resulted in death (sleep) because God had to have them killed in order to save the ones who were still open to His Spirit, but I personally don't believe that was ever God's plan--He had no other choice if He was to save the human race from Satan's deceptions.
This why we have Jesus and the cross. The demonstration of God's true character and true nature. The God of 1 Corinthians 13.
Only by recognizing Satan as worthy of worship.There were other things that Christ could have done, but didn't. He could have turned the rocks into bread.
Or would.He could have called 12 legions of angels to aid him during his arrest. He might have been able to take a pass on the cup of suffering that he drank from. Just because he didn't do something it doesn't mean he couldn't.
Well, I did specifically ask, "Do we have any instance where Jesus Himself kills and takes life?" Now certainly, we have instances in the OT where there are some examples are used to describe necessary actions by the Lord. No doubt. But I asked a specific question here. If Jesus came to show us the Father, and who God really is, then why do we have no instances of Jesus killing as He did in the OT?God does give and take life. Here are just a few examples mention in scripture where God said he took lives: everyone alive except Noah and his family; the firstborn of Egypt; Nadab and Abihu; Korah and his company; Ananias and Sapphira...
The point was in relation to attempting to explain why God doesn't use methods He finds an abomination to get His point across.
BTW, Ananias and Sapphira died by instant conviction of the Holy Spirit because they lied to God. Nothing in the text suggests that God "killed" them.
I've been very nice and quite scriptural in my approach Michelle.The other day, you posted that quote from Ellen G. White that made me realize that you have to defend your disbelief in the immortality of the soul because of your concern that this belief gives a toehold to Satan for further deception. That explains your vehemence in arguing your case from all sides, but you need to be careful that your arguments are logical and scriptural.
I never suggested being equal with God. Big difference and a logical leap on your part. I accept God's friendship. Jesus equated friendship as lowering oneself to the point of being a servant.I really think it is misguided to believe that the two doctrines Ellen G. White warned about will lead to wholesale deception. This quote, however, seems to border on desiring to make yourself equal to God, which was the original deception that led to Adam and Eve's sin and the fall:I know few bosses that would willingly choose to have a relationship with their subordinates as Jesus did for His. He is the God that washes feet, that stoops down to act as a servant to teach His disciples the meaning of true love towards other men. More so He did this willingly. God did this. Sorry Steve, I don't see Jesus as my boss....I see Him as a friend.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
You Are Israel
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Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
RND wrote:
RND, I don't think you are able to follow your own argument. First you say that God (in the Old Testament) wouldn't do a certain thing, because Jesus never did certain things (which you listed). Then Michelle showed you that God did some of the very things that you said that Jesus wouldn't do. Then you complained that the examples she gave were from the Old Testament—which is where the calling up of Samuel (the thing you said God and Jesus wouldn't do) is also found. Are you unable to see the illogic of your own argumentation?
Besides, God does indeed speak through abominable channels. He spoke through both Balaam and through Caiaphas (John 11:51). He also seems to have reveal to Laban "through divination" that his prosperity came from having Jacob n his employment (Gen.30:27).
However, for God to send Samuel to speak to Saul is not speaking through an abominable channel. Samuel was a prophet, and he proved it once again when he prophesied Saul's death.
And how do you get around Acts 12:23? And how about Revelation 19:11ff ? Your Jesus is too small.BTW, Ananias and Sapphira died by instant conviction of the Holy Spirit because they lied to God. Nothing in the text suggests that God "killed" them.
RND, I don't think you are able to follow your own argument. First you say that God (in the Old Testament) wouldn't do a certain thing, because Jesus never did certain things (which you listed). Then Michelle showed you that God did some of the very things that you said that Jesus wouldn't do. Then you complained that the examples she gave were from the Old Testament—which is where the calling up of Samuel (the thing you said God and Jesus wouldn't do) is also found. Are you unable to see the illogic of your own argumentation?
Besides, God does indeed speak through abominable channels. He spoke through both Balaam and through Caiaphas (John 11:51). He also seems to have reveal to Laban "through divination" that his prosperity came from having Jacob n his employment (Gen.30:27).
However, for God to send Samuel to speak to Saul is not speaking through an abominable channel. Samuel was a prophet, and he proved it once again when he prophesied Saul's death.
Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
I agree. You have been very nice (I didn't say you weren't, just that you were illogical) and you attempted to make your point by using scripture, where I have been too lazy to look anything up.RND wrote:I've been very nice and quite scriptural in my approach Michelle.
Yes, you did yesterday afternoon:I never suggested being equal with God. Big difference and a logical leap on your part. I accept God's friendship. Jesus equated friendship as lowering oneself to the point of being a servant.
God, in the person of Jesus Christ, equates Himself as a friend to man, particularly His disciples. Friends are equals.
Re: Consulting or calling up the dead
Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.steve wrote:And how do you get around Acts 12:23?
Messenger of the Lord
And how about Revelation 19:11ff ?
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him [was] called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Nothing about "killing" here Steve.
War? polemeo. It's where we get the modern word "polemics." An aggressive attack on or refutation of the opinions or principles of another. The art or practice of disputation or controversy —usually used in plural but singular or plural in construction. I.E. a "war of words." This is in keeping Steve with "These are the words of him who has the sharp, double‑edged sword."
Why, 'cause he's not a killer?Your Jesus is too small.
Did Jesus ever speak to anyone through the dead Steve? No. Not once. Did Jesus ever "kill" anyone or did Jesus heal and make well? He made well, never killed.RND, I don't think you are able to follow your own argument. First you say that God (in the Old Testament) wouldn't do a certain thing, because Jesus never did certain things (which you listed). Then Michelle showed you that God did some of the very things that you said that Jesus wouldn't do. Then you complained that the examples she gave were from the Old Testament—which is where the calling up of Samuel (the thing you said God and Jesus wouldn't do) is also found. Are you unable to see the illogic of your own argumentation?
God spoke to Balaam through a donkey...a living donkey, not the dead. Caiaphas was inspired to speak by the Holy Spirit and he too was alive, not dead. God spoke directly to Laban in a dream, which is exactly how God speaks to people. Laban also was alive and not dead. The experience that Laban was referring to was seeing the blessing of the Lord on Jacob.Besides, God does indeed speak through abominable channels. He spoke through both Balaam and through Caiaphas (John 11:51). He also seems to have reveal to Laban "through divination" that his prosperity came from having Jacob n his employment (Gen.30:27).
Your examples would be better if you can show me one instance where God ever spoke through the dead.
Lastly, my point is simply this. If God does indeed speak to people through the dead then His prohibition against mediums and wizards was unfounded. That would be like saying that Adolph Hitler was justified in killing because Hitler truly thought it was his calling from the Lord.
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
Torah & t`uwdah. Law and precept. Are you really suggesting that God breaks His own laws? That would make God out to be exactly what I said he wasn't, a "do as I say, not as I do" God.
Steve, Samuel was dead.Have you ever talked to a dead person? God, by His own word, tells people exactly how He talks with them.However, for God to send Samuel to speak to Saul is not speaking through an abominable channel. Samuel was a prophet, and he proved it once again when he prophesied Saul's death.
Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, 2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; 3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Dan 1:17 As for these four children, God gave them knowledge and skill in all learning and wisdom: and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary
You Are Israel
Sabbath Truth
Heavenly Sanctuary