Revelation -- Where is the End?

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RND
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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 1:57 pm

psychohmike wrote:Clearly the significance is in the materials and not the body parts. And whether you know it or not you have proven this by this last statement of yours.
Actually Mike that's an odd statement in the fact that though Gold makes an excellent adornment and is significant of great wealth it is virtually useless in making weaponry. So if that's the case not only do the body parts represent things, the metals represent things as well.

In other words, the metals/body parts are not mutually exclusive....they compliment each other.
"IF" there was any significance to the body parts, and historically we can verify the Greek empire starting out as a unified kingdom that eventually ended up divided, it then logically follows that whatever kingdom was to follow the kingdom of bronze, would have to have started out as "TWO" separate kingdoms and finished the same way.
Exactly! Now you're getting it! Rome's downfall began when she separated into to "legs," east/west division of power. Rome/Constantinople.
The legs of iron were never united. However the Roman empire that was represented by the legs of iron was.
Just as the two thighs represent the final division of power of the Greek empire before it's ultimate destruction, so to the two legs of iron represent the final division of power of Pagan Rome.

The symbolism is both accurate regarding the metals of the Greeks and Romans and their ultimate division of power.
You just can't have it both ways.
See Mike, this is why I didn't want to try and "convince" you of anything. Your mind is made up. There is no way to convince you that what you belief is myopic.

Greece was represented by it's bronze works and weaponry and it's final division of power as was Rome. It's unmistakable. And is in fact quite logical. Finally, it has been the main view of historism in the Protestant movement for over 350 years.
It is the materials, Gold, Silver, Bronze, Iron and Clay that are significant...Not the body parts, other than the statue was a body of a man...in which a normal man will have one head, a chest with two arms, a torso that works it's way into two legs with feet and ten toes.
The chest with the arms represented the two divisions of power between the Persians and the Medes. Two "arms" joined in power. The torso and legs of bronze represented Greece. One singular power that eventually split into two divisions before being overcome. The legs of iron represented Rome. One singular power that eventually split into two divisions before being overcome
That Daniel himself places no significance in the details of the statue in this passage like he did later in chapters 7 & 8 regarding the horns on the fourth beast should speak VOLUMES.
Mike, just the mere mention of them along with the historic facts of their revelation should be considered significant.

The argument you make is really odd and seemingly inconsistent with scripture when you consider that Babylon in Daniel 7 was represented by a lion. And it is very true that this was in a way a national symbol was much like the symbol of an eagle is that of the United States.

Image

But what about the bear with three ribs in his mouth? No where in it's history is the bear depicted as the nation symbol of the Medes and Persians. Using your method of deducement the bear can't possibly represent Medio Persia. In fact, try to find any symbolism tying Medio Persia with a the symbol of the bear. You won't find any.

We are told by Daniel that in fact the image itself represented various kingdoms. The fact that each part of the body represented a unique detail in the historic reality of each of these images/kingdoms should not be dismissed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by psychohmike » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:31 pm

I'll tell you what. For sake of simplicity...let's simply focus on the legs of iron and feet of iron mixed with clay.

As an aside, I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. And I even find it quite amazing how well some of history lines up with the details of the statue. But considering how there is "NOTHING" explicit in the text that supports your claim, your interpretation is without basis.

Let me attempt to make in illustration/chart in hopes that it will help.

RED = Torso and legs of Bronze
BLUE = Legs of Iron and feet of Iron mixed with clay.

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We can agree that the belly and upper legs of bronze speak of the Greek empire and that it was divided at it's demise. And I won't even hold against you that it was at first divided into four and then into just two. Can't even begin to imagine what kind of statue that would look like. :lol:

NOW LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE LEGS IN MY ILLUSTRATION.

DO YOU SEE ANY PART OF THE BLUE LEGS THAT TOUCH AT ANY POINT IN THEIR CHRONOLOGICAL EXISTANCE???

The answer is NO.

For your depiction of details related to your interpretation of this passage to work the Roman Empire would have had to have begun as a divided empire and ended as one. Which by no means happened.

For your depiction to have ANY validity, the IRON portion of the statue would have had to start at the waist and it would have looked like this.

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Can you at least understand the point I am trying to make???

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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:04 pm

psychohmike wrote:I'll tell you what. For sake of simplicity...let's simply focus on the legs of iron and feet of iron mixed with clay.

As an aside, I don't disagree with a lot of what you are saying. And I even find it quite amazing how well some of history lines up with the details of the statue. But considering how there is "NOTHING" explicit in the text that supports your claim, your interpretation is without basis.
As I said, "A man convincd against his will is of the same opinion still."
Let me attempt to make in illustration/chart in hopes that it will help.

RED = Torso and legs of Bronze
BLUE = Legs of Iron and feet of Iron mixed with clay.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXFEET
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXFEET
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXFEET
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XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXFEET
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We can agree that the belly and upper legs of bronze speak of the Greek empire and that it was divided at it's demise. And I won't even hold against you that it was at first divided into four and then into just two. Can't even begin to imagine what kind of statue that would look like. :lol:
Why did you make the feet blue. Iron mixed with clay represents another kingdom, not the same. For accuracy you should have used green for the feet.
NOW LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE LEGS IN MY ILLUSTRATION.

DO YOU SEE ANY PART OF THE BLUE LEGS THAT TOUCH AT ANY POINT IN THEIR CHRONOLOGICAL EXISTANCE???

The answer is NO.
No, but that isn't the point. The legs of iron don't represent the kingdom at the beginning of it's rising but near it's fall and destruction.
For your depiction of details related to your interpretation of this passage to work the Roman Empire would have had to have begun as a divided empire and ended as one. Which by no means happened.
No it doesn't. That's simply your interpretation. The fact of the matter is that the two divisions represent these kingdoms at the time near their final and utter destruction and fall, not at their beginning.

History is simply not on your side. Yet you keep trying to argue against it. At or near the fall of Greece it was divided in to two separate sections. At or near the fall of the Pagan Roman Empire it was divided in to two separate sections. That's historic fact brother and there is no easy way to explain it away.
For your depiction to have ANY validity, the IRON portion of the statue would have had to start at the waist and it would have looked like this.

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:shock: That's funny, I think. What about the feet? They should be green, or pink.
Can you at least understand the point I am trying to make???
Oh, I certainly understand it! It's comical (not in a bad way! :D )I just simply disagree with it. Remember this Mike, "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." I tried not to have to convince you of anything. In fact I begged it off.

BTW, Mike where do you headline next? The Riviera? Palms? Treasure Island? The Tonight Show?
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:39 pm

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
He's of the same opinion yet, and always will be. That's my bet.
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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 10:48 pm

Paidion wrote:
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
He's of the same opinion yet, and always will be. That's my bet.
That made me laugh! :D
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by selah » Tue Feb 24, 2009 12:19 pm

I am new to TNP forum and am enjoying reading your opinions.

Being raised a serious SDA and then studying religion as an adult, I have done a fair amount of investigation into Daniel and Revelation.

Since I am new on the forum, I am "sitting back and listening" to the brothers. Thanks...

God bless you in conversation,
SueAnn* :)
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by RND » Tue Feb 24, 2009 2:33 pm

SueAnn wrote:I am new to TNP forum and am enjoying reading your opinions.


Hey there SueAnn! Welcome to the forum. Were you referring to anyone in particular or the opinions in general?
Being raised a serious SDA and then studying religion as an adult, I have done a fair amount of investigation into Daniel and Revelation.
Are you SDA currently? I've been SDA for just short of 3 years.
Since I am new on the forum, I am "sitting back and listening" to the brothers. Thanks...

God bless you in conversation,
SueAnn* :)
Jump in dear! Please! I feel like the proverbial fifth wheel here.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Revelation -- Where is the End?

Post by psychohmike » Wed Feb 25, 2009 12:23 pm

RND wrote:I feel like the proverbial fifth wheel here.
Or maybe in your case the proverbial seventh wheel... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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