In my ever evolving understanding of God's Word, I am coming to see the centricity of Christ's accomplishment at the cross. (death and resurrection) When talking about "the second coming", there are those who look forward in time (futurist) and those who look back at AD 70 (full prets), but I wonder why the most obvious answer to me seems to be discarded by almost everyone. That is, when I physicaly die and leave my mortal body, THAT is Christ's second coming.
Besides the fact that almost all of us have been told that Christ's second coming is a singular one time event in history, does the Bible really support that understanding? Or have we just overlayed that theology into what we read?
Douglas
Second coming - individualized
Re: Second coming - individualized
Hi Douglas,
Are there any particular scriptures that make you understand it this way?
Also, in your view, is there another coming after that then? ie. at a one-time end of the world?
For your question whether there the bible supports the understanding of Christ's second coming to be a singular event, Thessalonians comes immediately to mind:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Is your understanding that every time a believer dies, the above is enacted, for each individual?
I would have difficulty reconciling the words 'we which are alive and remain' with something that happens individually when we die.
Also, the wording seems unnecessarily confusing - if it was something that happens at death I would expect it to be "us going to be with Christ" rather than Him coming.
Also in Corinthians there seems to be a one time event separate to death.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV)51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Are there any particular scriptures that make you understand it this way?
Also, in your view, is there another coming after that then? ie. at a one-time end of the world?
For your question whether there the bible supports the understanding of Christ's second coming to be a singular event, Thessalonians comes immediately to mind:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Is your understanding that every time a believer dies, the above is enacted, for each individual?
I would have difficulty reconciling the words 'we which are alive and remain' with something that happens individually when we die.
Also, the wording seems unnecessarily confusing - if it was something that happens at death I would expect it to be "us going to be with Christ" rather than Him coming.
Also in Corinthians there seems to be a one time event separate to death.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV)51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Suzana
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
_________________________
If a man cannot be a Christian in the place he is, he cannot be a Christian anywhere. - Henry Ward Beecher
Re: Second coming - individualized
Suzana,
Thanks for your response!
What I think can be a little confusing is that I believe that the term that we read several times in the Bible to be "the coming of the Lord" can be understood in different ways depending on the context. For example, I believe that the coming of the Lord spoken of in Matt 24 is in reference to AD 70 and the judgment that comes upon apostate Isreal. "what will be the sign of your coming". There are also several OT references to God "coming" in judgment upon certain nations as well that can help us establish how this term can be understood. And In 1Th 4:15, I think a case can be made, possibly, that the "coming of the Lord" is actualy about the up and coming destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. That being the end of the Jewish age as they knew it. So the "alive and remain" is refering to those who are alive after the coming of the Lord in Judgement in AD 70. Then in 1 Th 4:17 when it says "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together....." does not have to be understood as a single event in time in history, but whenever a Christian dies, Christ comes for them individually. I think Paul is just explaining what happens to Christians after the end of the age (the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70). I do not think that the Bible states specifically in any verse the end of the world as you and I might state that. Although I do realize several Scriptures that are understood by most people to say that.
I hope this helps you understand how I see it, at least at the moment. I may be out to lunch
, and I am not hoping to persuade anyone to understand it as I do at this time. But it helps me to have to talk about it, as I hopefully will come to a better understanding with all your comments.
douglas
Thanks for your response!
What I think can be a little confusing is that I believe that the term that we read several times in the Bible to be "the coming of the Lord" can be understood in different ways depending on the context. For example, I believe that the coming of the Lord spoken of in Matt 24 is in reference to AD 70 and the judgment that comes upon apostate Isreal. "what will be the sign of your coming". There are also several OT references to God "coming" in judgment upon certain nations as well that can help us establish how this term can be understood. And In 1Th 4:15, I think a case can be made, possibly, that the "coming of the Lord" is actualy about the up and coming destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. That being the end of the Jewish age as they knew it. So the "alive and remain" is refering to those who are alive after the coming of the Lord in Judgement in AD 70. Then in 1 Th 4:17 when it says "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together....." does not have to be understood as a single event in time in history, but whenever a Christian dies, Christ comes for them individually. I think Paul is just explaining what happens to Christians after the end of the age (the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70). I do not think that the Bible states specifically in any verse the end of the world as you and I might state that. Although I do realize several Scriptures that are understood by most people to say that.
I hope this helps you understand how I see it, at least at the moment. I may be out to lunch
, and I am not hoping to persuade anyone to understand it as I do at this time. But it helps me to have to talk about it, as I hopefully will come to a better understanding with all your comments.douglas
Re: Second coming - individualized
I am glad you asked that question Doug. It comes up a lot of times and every time I see a reference to the Lord's coming, I ask myself if this can be one of those individual comings. I have concluded that it cannot be.
I guess what has to be determined is "What is meant by the Lord's coming?" Hopefully we are speaking of His Parousia event.
This the event mentioned in Matthew 24:3, 1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Peter 3:4, 12 and other choice passages.
I mention these ones specifically because they address the Olivet discourse, the resurrection, the famous "rapture" text, and the mis-exegeted end of the world text...
In Matthew 24, Jesus Christ takes 2 full chapters describing the events prior to his Parousia. This tells me it was a one-time historical event.
In 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter, unfortunately it just describes the specific event, so the verdict is out on that one.
In Thessalonians 4, Paul speaks about those being dead and alive at His Parousia event. But since I believe the "we" in "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" refers to the original audience only - Paul, Silvanus, Timothy , and the 1st century Thessalonians, I can not help but believe it as a one time historical event, and a past one to boot. My hermeneutic will not allow me to take the historical events and teleport them into my generation, and nor will it allow a teleport of our generation back into the first century pronouns...
In 2 Peter 3, the promised coming was something the scoffers were questioning. They couldn't question something if it happened at individual death. [These were the same "mockers" in Jude 1:18, Strong's 1703]. Peter answered there question as if it was something that was going to be fulfilled and nothing was going to get in the way of God's original plan and purpose. He was faithful and not slack concerning His promise. It was Peter's audience who was looking for a new heavens and earth. And of course, most associate this with a new literal, physical, material cosmology instead of a spiritual reality (but I digress). It seems that Peter is speaking of a one time event as well.
But is not all terminology based upon one scripture - Hebrews 9:28?
Hebrews 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. This was a day approaching for those Hebrew believers. There was no prerequisite of death mentioned.
How do we look for him at death? If He does not come until we die, how do we look for Him while alive?
The New testament is full of believers expectations and they grew in intensity as the close of the generation drew nearer. Revelation is all about the Parousia, though one individual somewhere pointed out that the word Parousia is not mentioned even once. And if we believe what John said in Revelation 1:1, 1:3, 22:6, 22:10, 22:12 and 22:20 about His coming in a short period of time, how can it possibly be still future to us?
To me, THE second appearing is just that. It is not "a" second appearing.
The Lord did come and His presence is with all believers right now. He won't be coming again to do it all over again. This is the "age to come." In this age is the new Jerusalem and new heavens and earth - for believers only. The rest are outside its gates and may enter in through the Lord Jesus...
Anyway, that's my Canadian two cents worth...
I guess what has to be determined is "What is meant by the Lord's coming?" Hopefully we are speaking of His Parousia event.
This the event mentioned in Matthew 24:3, 1 Corinthians 15:23, 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Peter 3:4, 12 and other choice passages.
I mention these ones specifically because they address the Olivet discourse, the resurrection, the famous "rapture" text, and the mis-exegeted end of the world text...
In Matthew 24, Jesus Christ takes 2 full chapters describing the events prior to his Parousia. This tells me it was a one-time historical event.
In 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection chapter, unfortunately it just describes the specific event, so the verdict is out on that one.
In Thessalonians 4, Paul speaks about those being dead and alive at His Parousia event. But since I believe the "we" in "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord" refers to the original audience only - Paul, Silvanus, Timothy , and the 1st century Thessalonians, I can not help but believe it as a one time historical event, and a past one to boot. My hermeneutic will not allow me to take the historical events and teleport them into my generation, and nor will it allow a teleport of our generation back into the first century pronouns...
In 2 Peter 3, the promised coming was something the scoffers were questioning. They couldn't question something if it happened at individual death. [These were the same "mockers" in Jude 1:18, Strong's 1703]. Peter answered there question as if it was something that was going to be fulfilled and nothing was going to get in the way of God's original plan and purpose. He was faithful and not slack concerning His promise. It was Peter's audience who was looking for a new heavens and earth. And of course, most associate this with a new literal, physical, material cosmology instead of a spiritual reality (but I digress). It seems that Peter is speaking of a one time event as well.
But is not all terminology based upon one scripture - Hebrews 9:28?
Hebrews 9:28 - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. This was a day approaching for those Hebrew believers. There was no prerequisite of death mentioned.
How do we look for him at death? If He does not come until we die, how do we look for Him while alive?
The New testament is full of believers expectations and they grew in intensity as the close of the generation drew nearer. Revelation is all about the Parousia, though one individual somewhere pointed out that the word Parousia is not mentioned even once. And if we believe what John said in Revelation 1:1, 1:3, 22:6, 22:10, 22:12 and 22:20 about His coming in a short period of time, how can it possibly be still future to us?
To me, THE second appearing is just that. It is not "a" second appearing.
The Lord did come and His presence is with all believers right now. He won't be coming again to do it all over again. This is the "age to come." In this age is the new Jerusalem and new heavens and earth - for believers only. The rest are outside its gates and may enter in through the Lord Jesus...
Anyway, that's my Canadian two cents worth...
-
psychohmike
- Posts: 80
- Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:19 am
- Contact:
Re: Second coming - individualized
Hey Douglas,
I've been working my way down this path as well. I know that there are plenty of places that speak about Jesus coming in judgment that had near timing statements attached to them, that I don't consider second coming passages.
Then there is Matthew 16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Which I don't see as a second coming passage either. Especially considering the immediate preceding context is persecution and martyrdom. Which would jive with what happened to Stephen in Acts. As he was being martyred he saw Jesus.
And then there is Matthew 26:64 "Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
This passage also I do not see as a second coming passage. But speaking of them understanding Jesus as fulfilling Daniel 7:13. Which in my own head is what Peter was speaking to the Jews about in Acts 2:34 and following that caused those standing there to repent and be baptized.
And that in some sense every time someone accepted Jesus as their messiah, He was then revealed to them as "sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
I guess I'm just not as convinced as I used to be that every time I see the word coming that it always speaks of the same thing.
Mike
I've been working my way down this path as well. I know that there are plenty of places that speak about Jesus coming in judgment that had near timing statements attached to them, that I don't consider second coming passages.
Then there is Matthew 16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Which I don't see as a second coming passage either. Especially considering the immediate preceding context is persecution and martyrdom. Which would jive with what happened to Stephen in Acts. As he was being martyred he saw Jesus.
And then there is Matthew 26:64 "Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
This passage also I do not see as a second coming passage. But speaking of them understanding Jesus as fulfilling Daniel 7:13. Which in my own head is what Peter was speaking to the Jews about in Acts 2:34 and following that caused those standing there to repent and be baptized.
And that in some sense every time someone accepted Jesus as their messiah, He was then revealed to them as "sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
I guess I'm just not as convinced as I used to be that every time I see the word coming that it always speaks of the same thing.
Mike
Re: Second coming - individualized
I find that interesting Mike. In reference to Matthew 16:28, I had one fella constantly say that it was just Christ coming in His kingdom. But then I came across 2 Timothy 4:1 - "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;" and that, to me, means they are concurrent events. Especially when you combine many other "appearing" verses that look to their future (1 Timothy 6:14, 2 Timothy 4:8, Titus 2:13, 1 Peter 1:7)psychohmike wrote:Hey Douglas,
I've been working my way down this path as well. I know that there are plenty of places that speak about Jesus coming in judgment that had near timing statements attached to them, that I don't consider second coming passages.
Then there is Matthew 16:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Which I don't see as a second coming passage either. Especially considering the immediate preceding context is persecution and martyrdom. Which would jive with what happened to Stephen in Acts. As he was being martyred he saw Jesus.
And then there is Matthew 26:64 "Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
This passage also I do not see as a second coming passage. But speaking of them understanding Jesus as fulfilling Daniel 7:13. Which in my own head is what Peter was speaking to the Jews about in Acts 2:34 and following that caused those standing there to repent and be baptized.
And that in some sense every time someone accepted Jesus as their messiah, He was then revealed to them as "sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
I guess I'm just not as convinced as I used to be that every time I see the word coming that it always speaks of the same thing.
Mike
To my understanding one of the reason Christ comes is to relieve the time of persecution and martyrdom as in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
As for Matthew 26:64, Jesus is speaking to unbelievers. He said they would see Him coming, and in clouds. In Daniel 7:13 and Acts 2:34, the direction is reversed - an upward direction to God. In Matthew 26:64, it is Him coming to those on the earth and all the tribes shall see Him.
Revelation 1:7- Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
And it is a certainty that not every time the word "coming" is used that it must refer to the Lord Jesus and His second appearing.
I hope you believe me when I say this, but no one tries harder to disprove my position than me. I am open to all arguments against my position. It simply forces me to get deeper into my Bible, and if I am finally proved wrong, I believe I will way better off than before when I did nothing but absorb other's teaching as truth. One thing for sure, I'll never go back to dispensationalism!
Re: Second coming - individualized
I believe that in Heb 9:28 it is telling us that those who look for Christ, He shall appear the second time is in reference to what happens to believers from the time of the cross to now when they die physically. I agree that this was a day approaching for those Hebrew believers (as I am pretty sure none of them are physically alive still 
), and although there is no prerequisite of death mentioned as you pointed out in verse 28, verse 27 the one just prior states "And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment." The context looks like it could be in regards to physical death. Maybe?
1 Cor 15:51 "Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed"... I think Paul here is saying that in fact NONE of the people he is writing to will sleep in the manner that people did prior to the Cross, but in fact upon physical death, they will ALL be changed. Before the cross, when people died, I believe they "slept" and waited until the resurrection, as Daniel was told. And if I ask myself, what does Jesus tell us about the resurrection. He said that He was the resurrection. Therefore, after the cross people no longer "slept" like they did before the cross, but they are changed instantly either to be with Christ forever or condemnation for those who reject Him.
1 Thes 4:13-17. Looks like the context is about those believers who are worried about those that they care about who have died. And he is giving comfort to them that they will see them again when they go to be with Christ (that is when they physically die) and that they will forever be with Christ and those that have died in Christ. I believe this passage is speaking of both the judgement upon Israel in AD70 (a singular event) when it talks about the "coming of the Lord" AS WELL AS what happens to believers (at that time as well as now) upon death. I don't think I am doing any teleporting, hehe
2 Peter 3 I agree with you Mellontes, this is speaking of the coming in Judgement in AD 70, a one time event for Israel. No argument from me
The Preterist view of judgement on Israel in AD 70 I agree with.(end of the age, ect) Math 24 and all of Rev I believe are speaking to that specifically. The part I don't see eye to eye with the full prets is the resurrection in AD70. I see it starting with Christ (the first fruits) and going forward from that time on till now. Something that was true for anyone from the cross onward. When Paul died he was going to be with Christ, and when you and I die, we to will go to be with Christ. We don't know when physical death will come (as a thief in the night), so we must be ready. And when I die, I expect to see Jesus, in power and glory (much as is described in Acts when Stephen was stoned to death).
What do you think bro?
Douglas
), and although there is no prerequisite of death mentioned as you pointed out in verse 28, verse 27 the one just prior states "And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment." The context looks like it could be in regards to physical death. Maybe?1 Cor 15:51 "Listen, I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed"... I think Paul here is saying that in fact NONE of the people he is writing to will sleep in the manner that people did prior to the Cross, but in fact upon physical death, they will ALL be changed. Before the cross, when people died, I believe they "slept" and waited until the resurrection, as Daniel was told. And if I ask myself, what does Jesus tell us about the resurrection. He said that He was the resurrection. Therefore, after the cross people no longer "slept" like they did before the cross, but they are changed instantly either to be with Christ forever or condemnation for those who reject Him.
1 Thes 4:13-17. Looks like the context is about those believers who are worried about those that they care about who have died. And he is giving comfort to them that they will see them again when they go to be with Christ (that is when they physically die) and that they will forever be with Christ and those that have died in Christ. I believe this passage is speaking of both the judgement upon Israel in AD70 (a singular event) when it talks about the "coming of the Lord" AS WELL AS what happens to believers (at that time as well as now) upon death. I don't think I am doing any teleporting, hehe
2 Peter 3 I agree with you Mellontes, this is speaking of the coming in Judgement in AD 70, a one time event for Israel. No argument from me
The Preterist view of judgement on Israel in AD 70 I agree with.(end of the age, ect) Math 24 and all of Rev I believe are speaking to that specifically. The part I don't see eye to eye with the full prets is the resurrection in AD70. I see it starting with Christ (the first fruits) and going forward from that time on till now. Something that was true for anyone from the cross onward. When Paul died he was going to be with Christ, and when you and I die, we to will go to be with Christ. We don't know when physical death will come (as a thief in the night), so we must be ready. And when I die, I expect to see Jesus, in power and glory (much as is described in Acts when Stephen was stoned to death).
What do you think bro?
Douglas
Re: Second coming - individualized
Douglas,
I agree that the idea of "coming" basically refers to a judgment. Then more specifically in the New Testament this was speaking of the judgment in AD70. Even the ones of psychohmike were still pointing to that same event of judgment where in Mat 26:64 Jesus was saying that their current events would be precursors of the AD70 judgment coming upon them.
Matthew 26:64 "Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
But there is no basis for saying that we individually experience some "coming of Christ" or "final resurrection" since the context basically addressed the concerns of the whole group of people (in Thessolonica, for example) rather than about individuals in the 21st century.
It seems that your rationale for individual experience of "coming of Christ" first disregards the judgmental nature of the "coming" and also assumes that each man has that final resurrection at the moment of that "coming."
I get repetitious (or consistent) here when I say that many errors occur because Christians have blended in several distinct types of resurrections together. The final resurrection comes as an event tied with the moment that all things have been subjected under Christ.
My study on resurrection is at http://www.biblereexamined.com/Resurrections.htm
or see the one on "coming" at http://www.biblereexamined.com/Coming.htm but the article on "coming" may not clearly explain the issues that I had in mind.
I agree that the idea of "coming" basically refers to a judgment. Then more specifically in the New Testament this was speaking of the judgment in AD70. Even the ones of psychohmike were still pointing to that same event of judgment where in Mat 26:64 Jesus was saying that their current events would be precursors of the AD70 judgment coming upon them.
Matthew 26:64 "Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."
But there is no basis for saying that we individually experience some "coming of Christ" or "final resurrection" since the context basically addressed the concerns of the whole group of people (in Thessolonica, for example) rather than about individuals in the 21st century.
It seems that your rationale for individual experience of "coming of Christ" first disregards the judgmental nature of the "coming" and also assumes that each man has that final resurrection at the moment of that "coming."
I get repetitious (or consistent) here when I say that many errors occur because Christians have blended in several distinct types of resurrections together. The final resurrection comes as an event tied with the moment that all things have been subjected under Christ.
My study on resurrection is at http://www.biblereexamined.com/Resurrections.htm
or see the one on "coming" at http://www.biblereexamined.com/Coming.htm but the article on "coming" may not clearly explain the issues that I had in mind.
Please visit my youtube channel -- http://youtube.com/@thebibledialogues
Also visit parablesofthemysteries.com
Re: Second coming - individualized
Just one comment on your last quote... Do me (and yourself) a favour and study out that phrase and similar phrases to it of "the thief in the night," and you will find that it only referred to those who would experience the coming judgment. Dare I say soon-coming judgmentDouglas wrote:We don't know when physical death will come (as a thief in the night), so we must be ready.
What do you think bro?
Douglas
Many dipensationalists believe that the thief in the night refers to the rapture and they are dead wrong. Let me know how you made out on the study. I found it rather illuminating myself...
Blessigns!