Second coming - individualized

[Douglas]

Hebrews 8:13 (Young's Literal Translation)

13in the saying `new,' He hath made the first old, and what doth become obsolete and is old [is] nigh disappearing.

Hebrews 8:13 (New American Standard Bible)

13When He said, "(A)A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete (B)But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear

Hebrews 8:13 (New King James Version)
13 In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Ok, I put up 3 different versions to help me explain a possible understanding. The first part appears to say that the first covenant has been made obsolete. Which I understand to have happened at the cross, the same time that the new covenant started. Now the 2nd part of the verse is not contradicting that, but furthur explaining that what the people of the time are observing (the ceremonial stuff) is old and about ready to vanish away. That in my mind does not say God was still honoring the first covenant and if you hurry up you can continue in that way of worshipping God until it is gone. hehe... just going a little overboard.

Otherwise you are basicly stating that God has two "active" covenants going on at the same time (from the cross to 70 AD). I understand a covenant to be a relationship existing between God and His people (something like karen is stating I guess ) Although like I said before I believe that covenant was established at the cross, and we decide if we want to enter into it. It appears to me that Heb 8:13 states the old ended when He started the New.

Did not the veil being torn indicate the end of the old covenant at the time of the cross?

[psychohmike]

Did not the veil being torn indicate the end of the old covenant at the time of the cross?

Could it not have represented the end of the old covenants effectiveness?

Pmike

[Douglas]

I agree pmike, I think it did represent the end of the old covenants effectiveness.

Is that what Mellontes understands it to be?

[mikew]

I agree pmike, I think it did represent the end of the old covenants effectiveness.

Is that what Mellontes understands it to be?

Myself, I don't know Mellontes' view here.

But that is a pretty potent statement that the old coventant had its end of effectivity. Such an end then describes an end of the promises to Israel and cutting off of benefits. I guess this is why Paul was showing that the promises had been completed to Israel (by the time Paul was writing Romans) and why John the Baptist gave a limited time of repentance ("Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand"). The Covenant people had to transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, this group then was the remanant that were the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel.

[Jill]

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[Mellontes]

I agree pmike, I think it did represent the end of the old covenants effectiveness.

Is that what Mellontes understands it to be?

Myself, I don't know Mellontes' view here.

But that is a pretty potent statement that the old coventant had its end of effectivity. Such an end then describes an end of the promises to Israel and cutting off of benefits. I guess this is why Paul was showing that the promises had been completed to Israel (by the time Paul was writing Romans) and why John the Baptist gave a limited time of repentance ("Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand"). The Covenant people had to transition from the Old Covenant to the New Covenant, this group then was the remanant that were the fulfillment of God's promises to Israel.

I would fully concur with that. There were still plenty of Jews participating in old covenant worship, but it was absolutely pointless to do so. God gace them 40 years to repent just as He gave them 40 years in the wilderness to repent. From the wilderness they went into the "type and shadow" promised land. At 70 AD, they went into the spiritual promised land. If you take the time to study the many parallels that exist in these tow time periods, it will be very rewarding...

I would have to add that even though the second covenant had been inaugurated at the cross, Hebrews 10:9 is very clear upon its complete establishment when the old covenant was COMPLETELY wiped out:

Hebrews 10:9 - Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Combine this with Hebrews 10:25 and Hebrews 10:37 and you have got a lot of preterism going on!!!

The next task for futurists is to show us which of the Lord's NT comings reflect a yet future date and which reflect upon 70 AD as only a type (even though all which was written would be fulfilled at this time (Luke 21:22). I guess the hardest part about this is the getting around of the PAROUSIA that the disciples originally inquired about in Matthew 24:3. Are futurists willing to say that there are two Parousia events? I think not.

Now that was probably more than required, but I just can't help myself.

Blessings!

[Paidion]

The "end of the world (age)" is referring to the time when Judaism will be finished and all the types and shadows of the old covenant system annihilated for good. This will consumate, manifest and bring to light entirely upon its own the new covenant in Christ. No longer would "being in Christ" be associated with just a Jewish sect. No longer could people fall back into Judaism under the tremendous Jewish persecution of that first century.

There is no doubt that the phrase should be translated "end of the age" rather than "end of the world." It is also true that the old age ended when the old covenant ended, and that as the gospel of Christ --- the gospel of the kingdom began (Mark 1:1) with the announcing of the kingdom by John the baptizer, continuing with the announcing of the kingdom by the Messiah Himself, that a new age was inaugurated.

Nevertheless, we must be careful with the assumption that "the end of the age" refers to the end of the age which led up to the new gospel age. I think most of the references to "the end of the age" apply to the end of the gospel age immediately followed by the coming of Christ and the inaugeration of the new age in which "the kingdom of the world" becomes "the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and He shall reign for ages and ages.” Revelation 11:15. Christ's coming is the time in which "the wheat is gathered into His barn", and the darnel is collected and burned.

The new age in which He shall reign will be the Kingdom age, the age in which the Kingdom of God is in its mature stage. The grain of mustard seed will have grown into a huge tree. The leaven will have leavened the entire 3 gallons of flour.

[Douglas]

2 Tim 4:6-9 NKJV

"For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 9 Be diligent to come to me quickly"

2 Tim 4:6-9 YLT

" 6 for I am already being poured out, and the time of my release hath arrived; 7the good strife I have striven, the course I have finished, the faith I have kept, 8 henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of the righteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day, and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation. 9 Be diligent to come unto me quickly,"

Context of above passage: the physical death of Paul.

Paul says he will get a crown of righteousness on THAT DAY.

What day is it may we ask, considering the context of the passage. Hello???? His Physical DEATH!!

When does Christ appear? AT PAULS DEATH!!

This passage is NOT looking forward to AD70 , it is NOT looking forward to some time still in the future. It is obvious the context is regarding Paul's physical death and the reward he will get WHEN IT HAPPENS.

[Mellontes]

2 Tim 4:6-9 NKJV

"For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing. 9 Be diligent to come to me quickly"

2 Tim 4:6-9 YLT

" 6 for I am already being poured out, and the time of my release hath arrived; 7the good strife I have striven, the course I have finished, the faith I have kept, 8 henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of the righteousness that the Lord -- the Righteous Judge -- shall give to me in that day, and not only to me, but also to all those loving his manifestation. 9 Be diligent to come unto me quickly,"

Context of above passage: the physical death of Paul.

Paul says he will get a crown of righteousness on THAT DAY.

What day is it may we ask, considering the context of the passage. Hello???? His Physical DEATH!!

When does Christ appear? AT PAULS DEATH!!

This passage is NOT looking forward to AD70 , it is NOT looking forward to some time still in the future. It is obvious the context is regarding Paul's physical death and the reward he will get WHEN IT HAPPENS.

How would you rectify 2 Tim 4:1 with your synopsis...

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV) I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT) I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-

It is the living and the dead who receive judgment. The crown of righteousness is given to ALL who loved His appearing - and that includes those alive as well! It may well serve to figure out what Paul meant by "that day."

Does he mention it in his epistles predating 1 Timothy? I believe so. And "that day" does not refer to the death of the believer. Paul receives the crown of righteousness at the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. Where would Paul be at this time? He would be in the hadean realm awaiting resurrection. This hadean realm no more exists because of the past second advent. This was the death that was swallowed up in victory. Believers in a post-parousia age go directly to heaven.

Notice another death that was abolished:

2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

This "death" is abolished through the gospel. Obviously it is not physical death and nor is it the 2nd appearing. It is His first advent. The "death" mentioned here is separation from God - the same death that was experienced in the garden by sin. Redemption is being brought back into the presence of God by faith in THE sacrifice.

So few people understand the many "deaths" of the Bible...

"The day" is often a reference to the day of the Lord or the day of Christ. Look for it and you shall find it...

[Douglas]

"that day" is obviously talking about Pauls physical death. It is the context of that passage. To jump back in the book of 2 Timothy and grab "that day" to some previous mentioned event is a strange way of hermaneutics to me.

2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT) I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-

Funny how you mention so few people understand "death" and don't get this. In regards to 2 Tim 4:1 The living are those who are physically alive and believe in Christ upon his appearing (that is when physical death happens). The dead are those who are physically alive but dead in there sins upon his appearing (that is again, when physical death happens)

I believe Paul upon his physical death went to be with Christ, as is stated in Romans, NOT in the hadean realm awaiting resurrection. The hadean relam was destroyed when Christ rose from the dead and death was swallowed up in victory. AT THE CROSS.