Second coming - individualized

[Douglas]

BTW, I love talking with you all. Hopefully nobody takes me the wrong way. I just love learning and debating with wonderful people as you all. This is all in an effort to better understand, for all of us I assume.

Douglas

[Mellontes]

"that day" is obviously talking about Pauls physical death. It is the context of that passage. To jump back in the book of 2 Timothy and grab "that day" to some previous mentioned event is a strange way of hermaneutics to me.

2 Timothy 4:1 (YLT) I do fully testify, then, before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is about to judge living and dead at his manifestation and his reign-

Funny how you mention so few people understand "death" and don't get this. In regards to 2 Tim 4:1 The living are those who are physically alive and believe in Christ upon his appearing (that is when physical death happens). The dead are those who are physically alive but dead in there sins upon his appearing (that is again, when physical death happens)

I believe Paul upon his physical death went to be with Christ, as is stated in Romans, NOT in the hadean realm awaiting resurrection. The hadean relam was destroyed when Christ rose from the dead and death was swallowed up in victory. AT THE CROSS.

Why would you say "death was swallowed up in victory" at the cross? The phrase you are using is a quote from 1 Corinthians 15:54 and is in reference to their future resurrection.

If you believe that your second appearing is concurrent with 1 Corinthians 15, how would you explain 1 Corinthians 15:51?

1 Corinthians 15:51- Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Here, it speaks directly concerning those who had NOT died (not all sleep). You must be able to rectify 1 Corinthians 15 with what you presently believe about His second appearing (only occurring at the physical death of the believer). You must also understand, that according to your present view, Paul, when writing to the Hebrew Christians, believed that they were ALLgoing to die and probably at the same time (Hebrews 10:25, Hebrews 10:37). No one can see the time of their death coming which is what you would have to believe concerning "the day" approaching. You would also have to believe that Paul predicted the death of all those Hebrew believers in a "very, very little while." This seems contrary to the Lords warning that they should flee Judea in Luke 21:21 and not have to risk further danger to themselves. Remember Pella and the Dead Sea Scrolls?

Anyway, some more stuff for you to ponder, or not...

[Douglas]

Why would you say "death was swallowed up in victory" at the cross? The phrase you are using is a quote from 1 Corinthians 15:54 and is in reference to their future resurrection

Yes, and I don't understand why that is a problem. ?? Try to follow me here..... The Christians at that time had been resurrected spiritually the moment they believe in Jesus Christ (just as we are), what the Bible calls being "born again". The seed of Christ is in them, but they still existed in their physical mortal body at that time until they physically die, then they are resurrected into the immortal state to be with Jesus forever.

If you believe that your second appearing is concurrent with 1 Corinthians 15, how would you explain 1 Corinthians 15:51?

1 Corinthians 15:51- Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

This also seems pretty easy to explain. Paul is just simply explaining to the Christians that they will ALL be changed upon physical death to the immortal state of being. That is to be with Christ forever. Physical Death is no longer what it was prior to Jesus' resurrection, which prior to the cross, the saints were told that they would rest until the end of days when they would arise to receive what they have been allotted. I know you believe that that occured around 70 AD (corperate resurrection theory), but I think a case can be made to understand that resurrection happened at the cross, following Christs resurrection. This is still a very much a preterist viewpoint as you can see.

verse 52 . "In a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last - For the trumpet will sound, and the dead wil lbe raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

When physical death comes, it comes in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last, like a theif in the night, the end of time for that individual, because at that moment, they are changed from mortal to immortal. Like a seed shedding its shell to become what was growing inside.

Here, it speaks directly concerning those who had NOT died (not all sleep). You must be able to rectify 1 Corinthians 15 with what you presently believe about His second appearing (only occurring at the physical death of the believer).

I agree this is speeking to those who had not yet physically died. And I think I have rectified a possible understanding to this passage.

You must also understand, that according to your present view, Paul, when writing to the Hebrew Christians, believed that they were ALLgoing to die and probably at the same time (Hebrews 10:25, Hebrews 10:37).

lets take a look at the two verses you use to justify that they are all going to die probably at the same time. That is a pretty amazing statement, and I am not sure the verses will prove that...

Heb 10:25 NKJV "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

Heb 10:37 NKJV " 37 “ For yet a little while, and He[a] who is coming will come and will not tarry"

If I say "The Day is approaching that physical death will come and we will all die" Am I making a statement that death will come AT THE SAME TIME to all of us? NO. I am only stating that physical death is inevitable. But, It will come. Not necessarily at the same time. Re-read the above verses and see if you can see it from that perspective.

I agree with you that Paul was stating that they were all going to die, but it is not necessarily AT THE SAME TIME. You only read that into the verse due to your current theological understanding.

No one can see the time of their death coming which is what you would have to believe concerning "the day" approaching.

Of course nobody can see the timing of their death coming, thats why it comes as a theif in the night. But, "the day" is aproaching for all of us, some sooner than others.

Anyway, some more stuff for you to ponder, or not...

Most deffinitly brother.

[Mellontes]

If you believe that your second appearing is concurrent with 1 Corinthians 15, how would you explain 1 Corinthians 15:51?

1 Corinthians 15:51- Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

This also seems pretty easy to explain. Paul is just simply explaining to the Christians that they will ALL be changed upon physical death to the immortal state of being. That is to be with Christ forever. Physical Death is no longer what it was prior to Jesus' resurrection, which prior to the cross, the saints were told that they would rest until the end of days when they would arise to receive what they have been allotted. I know you believe that that occured around 70 AD (corperate resurrection theory), but I think a case can be made to understand that resurrection happened at the cross, following Christs resurrection. This is still a very much a preterist viewpoint as you can see.

But the problem is that Paul is talking about the change that would occur to those who were ALIVE (not sleeping). You have added in the physical death aspect. If you believe the resurrection happened at Calvary, then of what consequence is your future second coming???

verse 52 . "In a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last - For the trumpet will sound, and the dead wil lbe raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

When physical death comes, it comes in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last, like a thief in the night, the end of time for that individual, because at that moment, they are changed from mortal to immortal. Like a seed shedding its shell to become what was growing inside.

Interesting you you should the phrase "thief in the night." This is a term that is applied solely to those who would come under judgment. Believers are not of the night, but of the day. Go ahead. Check out every reference where this phrase is used. It is used in terms of judgment of unbelievers. Also, to me, the "last trump" is an age ending event for everyone at that time - not just a last trump occurring millions of times when each person dies. The last trumpet sounding has all sorts of implications that I believe you have not yet looked at...

Here, it speaks directly concerning those who had NOT died (not all sleep). You must be able to rectify 1 Corinthians 15 with what you presently believe about His second appearing (only occurring at the physical death of the believer).

I agree this is speaking to those who had not yet physically died. And I think I have rectified a possible understanding to this passage.

Your rectification added in the aspect of physical death, contrary to the context.

You must also understand, that according to your present view, Paul, when writing to the Hebrew Christians, believed that they were ALLgoing to die and probably at the same time (Hebrews 10:25, Hebrews 10:37).

lets take a look at the two verses you use to justify that they are all going to die probably at the same time. That is a pretty amazing statement, and I am not sure the verses will prove that...

Actually, that is not at all what I was implying. I was trying to tell you that it was what YOU were implying. How could Paul know that the day was approaching for all those Hebrew Christians (if physical death was meant)? Certainly the "the day" was approaching and it was gonna happen in a "very little while," to those Hebrew Christians, but if death is what was meant, then Paul predicted their deaths. I would strongly urge against this understanding. The Parousia event (that which you believe occurs at physical death) is the same event of Matthew 24:3 where the disciples knew that this related to the time when Jerusalem would be destroyed - out with the old covenant and in with the new (not inauguration but manifestation - as previously discussed).

Heb 10:25 NKJV "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching."

Heb 10:37 NKJV " 37 “ For yet a little while, and He[a] who is coming will come and will not tarry"

If I say "The Day is approaching that physical death will come and we will all die" Am I making a statement that death will come AT THE SAME TIME to all of us? NO. I am only stating that physical death is inevitable. But, It will come. Not necessarily at the same time. Re-read the above verses and see if you can see it from that perspective.

I agree with you that Paul was stating that they were all going to die, but it is not necessarily AT THE SAME TIME. You only read that into the verse due to your current theological understanding.

But I am not agreeing with you, am I? The context is not death. The context is the second appearing of Jesus Christ - as opposed to His first appearing (2 Timothy 1:10)

Of course nobody can see the timing of their death coming, thats why it comes as a thief in the night. But, "the day" is aproaching for all of us, some sooner than others.

The thief in the night only came to those believers of the first century. What I would do is look at the word Parousia and see how it is used in regards to Jesus. I would be curious to see how you justify His Parousia at the personal death of each believer. I am especially interested in the Mathew 24:3 passage...

[Douglas]

But the problem is that Paul is talking about the change that would occur to those who were ALIVE (not sleeping). You have added in the physical death aspect. If you believe the resurrection happened at Calvary, then of what consequence is your future second coming???

Yes, the change was something that would occur to those who were alive at the time, WHEN THEY DIE. The context of the passage deals specifically with that. 1 Cor 15:53 "For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality" To me, this sounds a lot like physical death. no?

Interesting you you should the phrase "thief in the night." This is a term that is applied solely to those who would come under judgment. Believers are not of the night, but of the day.

Ok, my only reason for saying that death comes as a "theif in the night" is that nobody knows when it is going to happen for sure. We, being of the light, are not overtaken by the event, but those who are not believers will be. Yet death will come for ALL, and nobody knows when. You seem to get hung up on key phrases like "thief in the night" or "the day" and try to fit that into your theological context instead of the context right in front of you, when I was only pointing out that death comes unexpectedly. I was not meaning to quote scripture per say in that comment.

Also, to me, the "last trump" is an age ending event for everyone at that time - not just a last trump occurring millions of times when each person dies.

Well you may be correct, but I am not as sure as you. obviously.

Matt 24:31, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Thes 4:16 are what we would refer to as the "last trump" and can be understood possibly to be upon physical death. It is only understood to be AD 70 by you (and those of the corperate resurrection view in preterism) because you MUST understand it that way to fit nicely into your theological construct. Just as the dispensationalist MUST understand that to be some future singular event yet to happen at the "end of the world" A dispi would argue against your understanding of these events with much scriptural support (have at em Padion, ) But does that make them right? Or if I provide verse after verse in support of a specific understanding, does that make it right? If ones basic concept of the resurrection is thought to be a certain way, then it is EASY to read the verses and "fit" them into that context, whether it is Christ at calvery, AD 70, or some yet future event. Again, just ask a dispensationalist. hehe..

I for one have no strong feelings to any particular viewpoint, and therefore I am not trying to defend any ONE view. That is why most of my thoughts are preterist in general, but not all, and I find the AD 70 resurrection aspect of that viewpoint not compatible with what I read. I can "make" it fit with the corperate resurrection theory if I wiggle a bit, but it just doesn't seem to add up to me. yet.

Actually, that is not at all what I was implying. I was trying to tell you that it was what YOU were implying

LOL, doh, my bad. I wish postings were easier to understand.. .No wonder we cannot all agree on exactly what the Bible is saying.

I hope this is benificial for some reading as I have enjoyed this very much brother. I hope to grow in understanding every day.

[Mellontes]

Doug,

I am still curious as to how Matthew 24:3's Parousia event relates to your Jesus' second appearing at personal death.

I don't know if your realize it or not, but what you believe concerning the second appearing DESTROYS the last days concept upon that Jewish age and dramatically affects all the end-time events associated with His second appearing.

Here is a post I made at CARM just recently in regard to 1 Corinthians 15. I hope you will take a peek at it...

http://www.christiandiscussionforums.or ... ost4334185

Blessings!