So, The Bible it is. Since we have all read it, there shouldn't be any problems. Where should we begin......
Hi Karen,
Jesus asserted His authority when He was on earth. Also, the Bible records His death and resurrection. But how do we know this is true? How do we know Jesus was telling the truth when He said the Father sent Him, et.al? In fact, how do we even know that He really came to the earth?
When I was a child, my mother taught me about Jesus. But how do I know my mother knew the truth? When I was in my youth, I asked these and other questions. To put it plainly, I questioned authority. I did not want to believe the things my mother taught me simply
because she told me so. Rather, I wanted to accept truth
based on it being fact, not because it was notions passed on without substance.
Do you accept the religion of your childhood because you have scrutinized the claims and proven them credible? If so, what measures did you use? The way I see it, there are are two avenues taken for searching out the evidence of Jesus’ authority. We can search for internal evidence, which Jesus, the apostles and the other Biblical authors wrote.
We can also look for external evidence, which is where I am looking now. The kinds of evidence that I am looking for would answer the following questions:
1. Does scripture (the Bible or Book of Mormon) have secular cross-references in historical records? In other words, did historians write the same stories or facts indicating the stories they (the Bible and Book of Mormon) wrote about?
2. What archeological artifacts have been found to illustrate the accuracy of stories, events and lifestyles written in the Bible and Book of Mormon?
3. Do scientific findings substantiate or refute the claims found within the Bible and the Book of Mormon?
4. What is the feasibility of claims made in the Bible and Book of Mormon?
I am sure there are other questions that could be listed. I hope you add your own questions to this list so we can consider all of the available evidence.
Historical, archeological, geographical and biological (and other categories) showing agreement with or cross-reference to scripture provide reassurance that the resource in our hands contains truth as opposed to fiction.
Actually, every Christian--and may I boldly include LDS with me in the "Christian" category?--rests upon the accuracy of Jesus' resurrection. If He did not really rise from the dead, then everything Christianity (and LDS) stand for fails.
For example, I have an article that demonstrates what looks like a biological inaccuracy coming from the Book of Mormon---a claim made within its pages that science now refutes. This in and of itself may not nullify the Book of Mormon but it brings up questions for me and I hope for any thinking LDS. You obviously think about your faith and apparently attempt to build bridges of communication between LDS and evangelicals so I hope you help me understand this scientific discrepancy.
The Harry Potter series for instance also exists, though I have not read it, but many have read it, and enjoyed it very much. The Star Trek series exists, and its fans have formed Trekie conventions, and have written extensive commentaries on possible meanings of each and every series. Some of these fans may be stoned on drugs, a bit nerdy, or maybe even retarded. I've known several. Hey- Dungeons & Dragons is a big thing for some folks also. I have no idea the nuance of each token or what magic counts as viable under certain conditions or which magic does not exist at all in the Dungeons & Dragons construct. I have declined joining in.
I have not read the Harry Potter series either, nor have I played Dungeons & Dragons. However, throughout my (quarter of a century) search for God before becoming a Christian, I studied almost any religion you name and eventually even considered fantasies such as found within “Star Trek.” Believe it or not, it was one of the many places that I attempted to find God. The Bajorian religion illustrated on “Deep Space Nine” caught my imagination as a possibility…
…and then Oregon set out to pass legislation to kill oneself. At this time in my life, I believe God opened my eyes to anarchy. It was like a timeline lay before me and upon it lay abortion in 1973, then years later the reading of articles wherein children found dead 3” long fetal bodies in dumpsters, then even more years later lay the reading of first trimester deaths now giving place to partial birth abortion (one minute before they become a literal newborn), then I witnessed my liberal friends (whom I stood with) overpower a Christian man as he gave a public speech, then months before becoming a Christian, I debated a liberal friend during Oregon’s “die with dignity” campaign. When that legislation passed, I stood at a cross-road. I could see anarchy clearly. A society, culture, community, family or individual without a foundation/authority for belief and behavior slips into anarchy. It was then that I HAD to re-examine authority. By what authority do you base your life on?
I went to my frequently attended women’s Native American sweatlodge (I had an eclectic worshipful practice) and when it was my turn to welcome a spirit, I welcomed the Spirit of Jesus into the sweatlodge. From that moment, the other women’s welcoming of the spirit of the bear, the skunk, etc. brought up the question in my mind, “by what authority does the spirit of a bear or skunk…give me counsel?” One memorable lady asked the spirit of the little green fairy into our sweatlodge and she even led us in a song of praise to the little green fairy lady.
I didn’t sing;
I was too busy wondering what authority this little green fairy woman may have over my thoughts and my actions. Obviously, it has become more and more important to me that I know who our authority really is, so we are not lead into every wind of doctrine that happens to be within earshot.
Now, I believe that faith in Jesus comes by hearing the word of God found within the Bible, but there are factual, foundational reasons that undergird my faith in the Bible.
I have studied far too many religions to accept every one of them. In fact, only two denominations are an impossibility to completely converge. In order to be sure that I believed the truth, I needed to re-examine what my parents, childhood church-school teachers, preachers, and then years later what my LDS bishops and elders said. From just these two denominations alone, if I believed everything they said, I would be a conglomeration of Seventh Day Adventist crossed with Latter Day Saint. Obviously, one cannot be both at the same time.
Somehow, someway, discerning between truth and fable must be done. Let's pick on Catholicism as an example. (Sorry brother Tom
) I have heard you, Karen, make statements against the Catholic belief system. Like you, I am astounded at some of the beliefs they hold. You and I obviously do not believe the Catholic religious belief system holds any authoritative command over our lives. For example, my reason for rejecting mariology (sp?) is because it is not found in the Bible. I hope you agree. But the bottom line is that we don’t see Catholics having the authority. The question remains, why?
Why do you believe the Bible has authority over your life? Do you believe in the Bible because your grandmother told you so? Or do you believe in the Bible because facts back it up? What if the Bible and Book of Mormon are fantasies? Wouldn’t we want to determine fact from fiction?
My skills to articulate such dialogue seem elementary to me. I am obviously a novice at this. Just thinking this through for posting has alerted me to my lack of ability to give answers to why I believe like I do. During the move, I realized how dependant I am upon my books and notes. I would hope that enough understanding would reside within my heart and mind that I could give an answer without need for books and notes. Writing to you and hopefully hearing from you and others will stimulate my mind so that I have greater understanding as to why I believe that the Bible is the foundation for understanding worldview and holds the authority to command my personal life.
If someone has doubts about The Bible, its authenticity, or that the Bible is inviable evidence as to it attestation, this is more for an evangelical than for an lds. The lds not only assumes its authenticity, but actually use it.
You may be referring to the “burning in the bossom” effect that most (or all) LDS within the church attest to. I acknowledge that many LDS believe and have no need to answer why they believe, other than to say they feel it is true. (Perhaps they follow their leaders, be that a parent, preacher, prophet, teacher or elder, or maybe they follow sentimental memories of ancestors migrating to Utah, or current family practices, or even fall prey (non unlike evangelicals) to society’s materialistic following of each never-ending next holiday.)
In any event questioning authority is not as you say “more for an evangelical that for an LDS.” I have to disagree with this because I have known at least a half dozen LDS who walked away from the LDS church. One liberal friend (the one I mentioned having debated the right to “die with dignity” legislation) left the LDS church several years before she and I debated the legislation. The fact is that upon her exit from the LDS denomination, (and Jesus Christ) she wrote a 20 page dissertation refuting the authority of LDS scripture. (I'm looking for it; it is 15 years old but she gave me a copy and I would love to read it now, not to bash LDS but to view the concerns a woman leaving LDS held. I am similar in that I left SDA with my own concerns. It is sad to leave Jesus in the wake of leaving a dominating religious system.)
There are in fact, LDS who question the authority of the Book of Mormon---and the Bible too. By the way, after my friend rejected both books, she moved “forward” to vote to abort babies (starting with first trimester and then later partial-birth abortion) and then even later, also to kill the elderly and infirm with “dignity.” This is an example of anarchy. What was once wrong became a popularity contest through our political process. On a national, state, local or personal level,
anarchy mutates if people don’t know what authority they should base life upon.
A woman was baring her testimony of the Son of God one sunday in womans meeting, and mentioned the "poofie linen cloth just crumpled in the corner of the tomb". In actual scripture, the cloth had been folded. I think that she must have been thinking of a scene from Mel Gibsons "The Passion" of Christ. This could happen to anyone from time to time. Just a bit of a mix up for a second is all.
This reminds me of the scripture telling us to have every thought obedient to Jesus Christ, but there is also more scripture you remind me of which tells us to be compassionate with one another, just as it sounds like you are when you say “this could happen to anyone...” Yes, none of us keep fact from fiction perfectly. (Again like I remember you sharing, I do not own a TV either. I did not see “The Passion” either. Another scripture I am reminded of is the story of the virgins with their oil lamps, praying for more diligence to fill our lamps...)
You don't have to have ever read nor ever read what is known as The Book of Mormon, but it sure is a great work, regardless who compiled it.
Yes, the Book of Mormon is either a great work of fact---or fiction. When I used to watch Star Trek’s “Deep Space Nine,” I marvelled at the fact or fiction in their religious practice—particularly the trances Captain Sisco or Quark went into when they touched the “orb.” It is hard to remember all of the names and correct terms now... but my point is that there really are compelling works of fiction.
To know the correct, true, authoritative command over humanity deserves our thoughtful evidence to show it to be factual, not fictional. We need true authority and therein, we must place our faith. Finally, faith is our goal: to have faith in the truth.
I keep hoping we can agree on the measures we use to determine authority. Take a hypothetical example from my recent move: If I wanted to move a piece of furniture into a corner space and you used a tape measure to see if it would fit, but I insisted on "eyeballing" it, well, my sense of space is not good so to be prudent, I should agree to use your tape measure---not rely on my "eyeballs"
So with this simple example, I hope you understand that I am asking you to measure the authority of scripture---be it the Bible or the Book of Mormon or the other LDS scriptures--by the measures of historical cross-referencing, archeological artifacts, scientific discoveries and biology...etc.
...I already can't wait until you write me! I hope you tell me some historical fact or scientific discovery that shows me that you believe the Bible (or the Book of Mormon) is really true.