Left Behind......sheesh!

[Murf]

TK you have found my quandary. I don’t really care about their eschatology as much as I want to help them with their fear about the end times or the fear that pops up almost daily whenever there is a war/earthquake/flood/dictator-who-is-soon-to-be-the-antichrist.

[Paidion]

i am not sure that there wont be some kind of great tribulation that will precede the 2nd coming of Christ; i have just resigned myself that if i'm alive when it happens then I'll be living through it (obviously!) so i better be ready.

The early Christians expected it, and expected to be there, and so they warned people about it, and about the Antichrist, etc. Of course they were historic premillenialists, as am I.

[AaronBDisney]

i am not sure that there wont be some kind of great tribulation that will precede the 2nd coming of Christ; i have just resigned myself that if i'm alive when it happens then I'll be living through it (obviously!) so i better be ready.

The early Christians expected it, and expected to be there, and so they warned people about it, and about the Antichrist, etc. Of course they were historic premillenialists, as am I.

Paidion
I guess I was under the impression that the early church knew of no such tribulation before the second coming. The only tribulation that they had in view (as far as my very shallow understanding goes) was the Roman invasion.

I don't know much about your view. Did they believe in a tribulation at the end of time prior to his second coming? Do you have any quotes on that? Did they believe it would last 7 years and was predicted by Daniel 9? I honestly don't know what exactly they thought.

[Paidion]

Perhaps the clearest quote (and this was long after the Roman invasion of 70 A.D.) comes from Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202) in Against Heresies Book 5, Ch 26, part 1:

In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord’s disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, among whom the empire which now rules [the earth] shall be partitioned. He teaches us what the ten horns shall be which were seen by Daniel, telling us that thus it had been said to him: “And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords and the King of kings.” It is manifest, therefore, that of these [potentates], he who is to come shall slay three, and subject the remainder to his power, and that he shall be himself the eighth among them. And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.

[SteveF]

Did they believe in a tribulation at the end of time prior to his second coming? Do you have any quotes on that? Did they believe it would last 7 years and was predicted by Daniel 9? I honestly don't know what exactly they thought.

I’ve pasted some quotes from Hippolytus (170-236). He seems to believe in a gap before the 70th week is fulfilled, in which the antichrist will wreak havoc. I might add that he thought all of this would happen 500 years after Christ. He believed that Jesus was born 5500 years after creation. Further, he thought that 6000 years after creation God would commence a “Sabbath” in which Christ would reign for 1000 years. He figured that Christ was born in the year 5500 because the Ark of the Covenant measured (in cubits) 2.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 which equals 5.5, which in turn equals 5500 years. The writer of the Epistle of Barnabus (100AD?) had the exact same view. Hippolytus gives further justifaction for this view in the second link I provided. I found the explanation strange when I first read it in the EofB. The idea certainly seemed to catch on for quite a while though. Obviously nobody after 500AD would hold the view.

Here are the links where you can find all of these quotes in context. Hippolytus did a mini commentary on virtually the entire prophetic part of the book of Daniel. The first link is the intro and the second is the meat of the commentary. I recommend reading it in order to get a feel for the context of the following quotes.

On Daniel: Preface by the most holy Hippolytus, (Bishop) of Rome
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iii.iv.i.x.i.html

The interpretation by Hippolytus, (bishop) of Rome, of the visions of Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar, taken in conjunction
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.i ... .x.ii.html

When the times are fulfilled, and the ten horns spring
from the beast in the last (times), then Antichrist will appear among them.
When he makes war against the saints, and persecutes them, then may we
expect the manifestation of the Lord from heaven.

For when the threescore and two weeks are fulfilled, and Christ is come, and the Gospel is preached in every place, the times being then accomplished, there will remain only one week, the last, in which Elias will appear, and Enoch, and in the midst of it the abomination of desolation will be manifested, viz., Antichrist, announcing desolation to the world. And when he comes, the sacrifice and oblation will be removed, which now are offered to God in every place by the nations. These things being thus recounted, the prophet again describes another vision to us. For he had no other care save to be accurately instructed in all things that are to be, and to prove himself an instructor in such.

Thus, then, does the prophet set forth these things concerning the
Antichrist, who shall be shameless, a war-maker, and despot, who, exalting
himself above all kings and above every God, shall build the city of
Jerusalem, and restore the sanctuary. Him the impious will worship as
God, and will bend to him the knee, thinking him to be the Christ. He shall
cut off the two witnesses and forerunners of Christ, who proclaim His
glorious kingdom from heaven

By the stretching forth of His two hands He signified His passion; and by mentioning “a time, and times, and an half, when the dispersion is accomplished,” He indicated the three years and a half of Antichrist. For by “a time” He means a year, and by “times” two years, and by an “half time” half a year. These are the thousand two hundred and ninety days of which Daniel prophesied for the finishing of the passion, and the accomplishment of the dispersion when Antichrist comes.

[Sean]

Hello Aaron,
It is interesting that you have changed your view since your own pastor warned you so strongly. Your strength of conviction is commendable. It's not easy to disagree with someone you are very close to and consider your teacher. Hopefully, this does not cause friction at your chruch. Have you thought about what you might do if you are asked to teach about the subject?

At first I would argue with some relatives of mine about this issue but later regretted it, since it was apparent they had no desire to examine the scriptures. Their mind was made up. So I told them I apologized and told them it's not important enough to argue about, and left it at that.

[AaronBDisney]

Hi, Sean.
I think that I intend to just not bring the subject up. The subject isn't constantly taught or preached on in the church I attend. When it is, and dispensational theology is preached on, I will not be nodding my head and there won't be an 'amen' from my mouth to say the least.

If I were asked to teach on this, and generally this won't happen, I normally seek God for my own lessons, I would have to address the subject with the pastor. I may not agree with him, but I believe that God has placed him in leadership and he handles it very humbly and very well.

So I'd probably tell him that I am not convinced of dispensational theology and hope and pray he would listen to some of the arguments in favor of the amil view. If not, I would not object to not being allowed to teach that way in the class. That's not to say I wouldn't love to teach it (not that I understand all the finer points of it yet by a long shot) but I've learned lessons the hard way about rocking a boat that's on it's way to the right shore.

Admittedly, I'd like to see more openness to other views in my denomintation. After all, if the best arguments against your view are wrong, why should it be intimidating to give audience to them?

I wouldn't recommend that for all Christians. Newer Christians may be likely to be swept up into all sorts of doctrines and led into confusion, but I'd love to see some of us (I supposed I'd class myself in this category) who know the scriptures well, explore all views on all sorts of things and bring new insight to our understanding.

[Paidion]

So I'd probably tell him that I am not convinced of dispensational theology and hope and pray he would listen to some of the arguments in favor of the amil view. If not, I would not object to not being allowed to teach that way in the class. That's not to say I wouldn't love to teach it (not that I understand all the finer points of it yet by a long shot) but I've learned lessons the hard way about rocking a boat that's on it's way to the right shore.

So why don't you and your pastor agree to meet half-way, and both agree to subscribe to the historic premillenial view? Then you'll both be endorsing the early Christian and of course correct view!

[AaronBDisney]

I haven't looked into that deeply as I should, Paidion, I must confess. I've just become very convinced that the dispy view has serious serious problems that I never could see but now those problems leap off of every statement I hear from those all hyped up about end times.
I'm pretty well convinced that the amil view makes a lot of sense, but who knows, maybe Historic Premil is the best view. I can't say it isn't until I give it a shot huh?