Insurance for Healthcare

Discuss topics raised by callers on the radio program
User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:22 pm

I also believe that, if you could not have obtained health insurance, and there were no other financial options open to you, there might (for all any of us can say) have been a similar good outcome to your wife's crisis.
That's a good point -- I guess I should add that if I couldn't afford it, I would have no problem trusting God for our care without it -- if anything, our ordeal has strengthened my Faith in this area -- I have no delusions that insurance or the care was the result of the outcomes. I also don't feel unequally yoked to the insurance company to provide the rules or restrictions of our care -- I'll pay and take whatever action required or deny care they suggest as I feel led to do even at the risk of the policy, as guided by the Spirit in prayer.

I also have a retirement plan -- if I lost it or had to use it for something else, I know God would provide, but I see that as good stewardship as well (not to retire to sloth, but from a day-grind job to opportunities of service).

User avatar
kaufmannphillips
Posts: 585
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:00 pm

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by kaufmannphillips » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:34 pm

steve wrote:
As things are, I am able to look at the situation more dispassionately, and from the standpoint of justice as well as mercy. I believe that modern Christians have actually borne a stronger witness for mercy than they have for justice. I do not think that these two ideals are at odds with each other, and I believe that a witness for justice is what is sorely needed in our time (and at all times!).
I missed the radio discussion. Could I impose upon you, Steve, to lay out the standpoints of justice and mercy that you are thinking of in this matter?
========================
"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
========================

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by steve » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:48 pm

Yes. The original question, to which I was responding, had to do with my objections to receiving government-provided health services. In the subsequent posts of this thread, the general subject of health insurance has sort of taken center stage, so, in answering your question, I need to say that, when I bring the question of justice into the discussion, I am thinking, primarily, of the idea of the government providing universal health insurance. I am not suggesting that there is any injustice in an individual voluntarily providing health insurance for himself and his family. This clarification may render the following explanation superfluous, but I will share anyway my thoughts about universal government-provided healthcare and the matter of justice.

I believe that, if you see a man in need, it is an act of mercy on your part to relieve him from your own resources. Mercy is a good thing, an attribute of God, and a duty of Christians and of all humans.

However, if you assist the needy man by taking money that is not yours from an unwilling donor, you have not acted in mercy (or perhaps you have shown selective mercy), because you have robbed another man, in order to do the "good" deed. This is an injustice.

The government has the right to provide certain services and to send the bill to the citizens, through taxation. Among theorists, there is a difference of opinion as to which services the government may justly provide and impose taxation for. It is clear that the government has the brute power to exact taxes in any amount by threat of force, even upon citizens who do not use and do not want the services for which they are being charged. There is no limit to the services that a strong-armed government may decide to provide and to charge its citizens for—but there is a limit to how much they may justly do so—that is, without becoming a robber of the taxpayer.

In deciding what the government may or may not include among the services involuntarily imposed upon the citizenry, one must either have information from God as to His thoughts on the matter, or else we must resort to personal sympathies of individuals. Unfortunately, the latter are not unanimous in their thoughts as to which government programs should be provided. The New Testament says that the government is authorized by God to enforce criminal justice, and to be paid for this service by the taxpayer base that is thus protected (Romans 13:1-7/ 1 Pet.2:13-14). This is the total sphere of governmental authority, so far as scripture informs—and it is enough. All citizens should willingly pay taxes for this necessary and divinely-authorized governmental intervention.

However, some citizens may wish to receive more services than the government is authorized to provide (e.g., free education for their children). Such benefits may not be the common desire of all taxpayers, however. Let those citizens find non-governmental (that is non-public) sources for those services, lest they end up robbing their neighbor taxpayers, who have no interest in them, nor any obligation to pay for them for others.

Similarly, some citizens desire to provide for the poor in greater ways than the government is authorized to do. This is fine. Let them do so as much as they wish. There are many non-governmental agencies through which a generous soul may do more to relieve the needy. However, charity is only virtuous if it involves the sacrifice of one's own resources voluntarily. For one man to impose on another the duty to support the charity of the first man's choice is not an act of mercy, but an act of oppression.

Since there is no limit to the amount of taxation the government may unjustly impose upon its citizens (because it controls the police, the courts and the prisons), an unjustified taxation to pay for services that the government has no authorization to provide amounts to robbery of the uncooperative citizenry at gunpoint. If this stolen money is then used to help the poor, this is not an example of mercy, but of injustice.

As I alway wish to point out, my concerns about this matter are strictly disinterested. I am one of those who would qualify to benefit, at no cost to myself, from the adoption of more government programs assisting the poor. I will pay no more taxes for national health care than I currently pay, or ever expect to pay. I have no personal monetary interest in this subject. However, I have no respect for any poor man who desires to receive aid in the form of goods unjustly stolen from others. This is not the system that God has set up for the relief of the poor.

In scripture, the obligation of ordinary people to help the very poor people is often affirmed. However, this assistance is to be discretionary. It is true that, in the Torah, some of the tithes (which were a religious tax), and also the edges of the fields, the gleanings, etc. were devoted to the poor, as was the return of forfeited land of the poor, original owners in the jubilee year. But these laws, which had to do with the disbursement of produce from the land, were examples of God's pressing HIs legitimate claims, based upon His ownership of the land. "'The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me" (Lev.25:23). The parallel today for the Christian is that all that we possess (not just the land we live on) is the Lord's, and He has every right to require us, as individual stewards of His stuff, to give to the poor or to dispense His funds in any way whatsoever He may choose.

It was never the government's prerogative to unjustly seize another man's land, as Ahab learned from Elijah, in the incident of Naboth's vineyard. The land was the Lord's, and He had apportioned it to individuals and families for their discretionary stewardship. The land was not the possession of the kings, to seize at will, in order to fund personal projects.

In a country where the citizenry is (theoretically) its own government, it is important that voting citizens do not seize property from their neighbors in order to support their own pet projects. Such would be the case if I, wishing to provide more health services to the poor than my private donations could fund, used my governmental power (my vote) to steal from my neighbor a portion of his wealth to help underwrite my pet project. My neighbor might have good reasons not to wish to participate in my project. He may have equally virtuous projects to which he would rather devote his discretionary money. He might even object, upon moral principles, to some of the activities he would be forced to fund under my project proposal. It is none of my business to tell him how charitable he must be with the things God has given him—and much less is it any of my business to take his resources from him by force, against his will, in order for me to feel that I am now being sufficiently "merciful" to the poor.

Bringing this back to the justice issue, if I have not enough money to help relieve a poor man, it is not merciful for me to go and rob a bank in order to make up the deficit in what I hope to provide. My moral obligations to help the poor end at the limits of my resources. When I must steal another man's resources to act "mercifully," I have lost sight entirely of the meaning of the word "mercy," and also of that other beautiful word, "justice."

User avatar
kaufmannphillips
Posts: 585
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:00 pm

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by kaufmannphillips » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:36 pm

Hi, Steve,

Thank you for your extensive reply.
steve wrote:
The New Testament says that the government is authorized by God to enforce criminal justice, and to be paid for this service by the taxpayer base that is thus protected. This is the total sphere of governmental authority, so far as scripture informs, and it is enough.
There are two basic approaches to engaging scripture: one takes scripture as the end of understanding, and one takes scripture as a beginning to understanding.

The New Testament is by no stretch of the imagination a comprehensive manual on governmental theory. The Roman Empire, of course, did not merely enforce criminal justice. The Romans undertook great public works projects, including roads and water systems that can still be seen today. The New Testament neither compliments nor indicts the Roman government for this.
steve wrote:
However, some citizens may wish to receive more services than the government is authorized to provide (e.g., free education for their children). Such benefits may not be the common desire of all taxpayers, however. Let those citizens find non-governmental (that is non-public) sources for those services, lest they end up robbing their neighbor taxpayers, who have no interest in them, nor any obligation to pay for them for others.

Similarly, some citizens desire to provide for the poor in greater ways than the government is authorized to do. This is fine. Let them do so as much as they wish. There are many non-governmental agencies through which a generous soul may do more to relieve the needy. However, charity is only virtuous if it involves the sacrifice of one's own resources voluntarily. For one man to impose on another the duty to support the charity of the first man's choice is not an act of mercy, but an act of oppression.

Since there is no limit to the amount of taxation the government may unjustly impose upon its citizens (because it controls the police, the courts and the prisons), an unjustified taxation to pay for services that the government has no authorization to provide amounts to robbery of the uncooperative citizenry at gunpoint. If this stolen money is then used to help the poor, this is not an example of mercy, but of injustice.
Here we have a rather myopic view of the situation. The purpose of public education is not to provide citizens who are parents with a free service. The purpose is to provide the entire society with the benefits of a better-educated populace. The situation is on the same order as roads and water systems - these are investments that benefit the entire society, including those who do not personally use public roads or directly furnish their properties with public water or sewage. Because we live as part of a society, that which benefits the society at large accrues to our own benefit in direct and/or indirect ways.

Accordingly, taxation for undesired services does not amount to robbery. Rather, it is an issue of investment. If one is fundamentally unwilling to accept the terms of participation in their society, then they have the privilege of disinvesting. This is easier in the United States than it is in other parts of the world. No one is forced to retain their American citizenship, and with few exceptions (say, terrorist suspects), no one is forced to dwell under the authority of the American government, which is the enforcing agency of American society. If one wishes, they may renounce their citizenship and attempt to emigrate to another society. Should they wish to abandon societal constraints to a radical extent, they may become stateless persons and pursue a migrant life in international waters or settle in the unclaimed portion of Antarctica. But should they wish to participate in a society, such has its costs, including making oneself available to taxation according to the paradigms of the society.
steve wrote:
In scripture, the obligation of ordinary people to help the very poor people is often affirmed. However, this assistance is to be discretionary. It is true that, in the Torah, some of the tithes (which were a religious tax), and also the edges of the fields, the gleanings, etc. were devoted to the poor, as was the return of forfeited land of the poor, original owners in the jubilee year. But these laws, which had to do with the disbursement of produce from the land, were examples of God's pressing HIs legitimate claims, based upon His ownership of the land. "'The land shall not be sold permanently, for the land is Mine; for you are strangers and sojourners with Me" (Lev.25:23). The parallel today for the Christian is that all that we possess (not just the land we live on) is the Lord's, and He has every right to require us, as individual stewards of His stuff, to give to the poor or to dispense His funds in any way whatsoever He may choose.

It was never the government's prerogative to unjustly seize another man's land, as Ahab learned from Elijah, in the incident of Naboth's vineyard. The land was the Lord's, and He had apportioned it to individuals and families for their discretionary stewardship. The land was not the possession of the kings, to seize at will, in order to fund personal projects.

In a country where the citizenry is (theoretically) its own government, it is important that voting citizens do not seize property from their neighbors in order to support their own pet projects. Such would be the case if I, wishing to provide more health services to the poor than my private donations could fund, used my governmental power (my vote) to steal from my neighbor a portion of his wealth to help underwrite my pet project. My neighbor might have good reasons not to wish to participate in my project. He may have equally virtuous projects to which he would rather devote his discretionary money. He might even object, upon moral principles, to some of the activities he would be forced to fund under my project proposal. It is none of my business to tell him how charitable he must be with the things God has given him—and much less is it any of my business to take his resources from him by force, against his will, in order for me to feel that I am now being sufficiently "merciful" to the poor.
I welcome your explanation of how G-d has apportioned the land on the North American continent.

In a country where the citizenry is (theoretically) its own government, the citizenry has invested their selves and their assets into the paradigm of that society. Their mutual participation in that society makes their individual decisions one another’s business. And because we are co-participants in American society, what you do is my business, and what I do is yours.
steve wrote:
Bringing this back to the justice issue, if I have not enough money to help relieve a poor man, it is not merciful for me to go and rob a bank in order to make up the deficit in what I hope to provide. My moral obligations to help the poor end at the limits of my resources. When I must steal another man's resources to act "mercifully," I have lost sight entirely of the meaning of the word "mercy," and also of that other beautiful word, "justice."
Individual ethic should not be confused with social ethic. It is the just responsibility of a society to provide for the needs of its constituents. To do so, the society makes use of its resources, however scattered they may be amongst its constituents. And to do such with discretionary income is not robbery, any more than it is robbery for one’s body to draw unneeded blood or nutrients from one part to the benefit of another.
========================
"The more something is repeated, the more it becomes an unexamined truth...." (Nicholas Thompson)
========================

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by steve » Tue Jul 28, 2009 6:29 pm

There are two basic approaches to engaging scripture: one takes scripture as the end of understanding, and one takes scripture as a beginning to understanding.

The New Testament is by no stretch of the imagination a comprehensive manual on governmental theory. The Roman Empire, of course, did not merely enforce criminal justice. The Romans undertook great public works projects, including roads and water systems that can still be seen today. The New Testament neither compliments nor indicts the Roman government for this.
Although the New Testament does not represent the end of all Christian discussion, as a starting point, it provides the foundation for all genuinely Christian discourse.

I would not expect to see a general analysis of the Roman governmental policy in documents written to regulate the behavior of people belonging to an alternative society, like the Kingdom of God—except where a specific criticism could serve as a lesson in contrasts. Since the Roman participants in the kingdom of God were not in a position directly to alter the spending habits of the Roman government, I would not see much reason for the Christians—who had things to discuss that more immediately related to their duties as Christians—to expend precious ink and parchment to matters unrelated to their sphere of responsibility. Apart from the Book of Revelation, the secular government is mentioned without criticism in the New Testament. It is mentioned only to make a point about Christian duty in regard to it—namely, that Christians should be law-abiding, tax-paying citizens. The distribution of community assets in the church was for the support of the poor. This is because the church did not have governmental functions (like the execution of criminal justice) on their agenda.
The purpose of public education is not to provide citizens who are parents with a free service. The purpose is to provide the entire society with the benefits of a better-educated populace. The situation is on the same order as roads and water systems - these are investments that benefit the entire society, including those who do not personally use public roads or directly furnish their properties with public water or sewage. Because we live as part of a society, that which benefits the society at large accrues to our own benefit in direct and/or indirect ways.
The maintenance of roads may be said to be consistent with the government's general duty to maintain a just society, since both military and police functioning are enhanced by the presence of good highways. In fact, I am under the impression that this was a primary purpose of the legendary road systems of the Roman Empire. Once those roads are in place, I believe the government may regulate civilian traffic upon them—again for the general security of the public against criminally wreckless negligence.

The provision of clean water is a matter to which you will not likely find any citizens objecting. If the overwhelming majority wish to pay the government to create public water treatment, then, perhaps they could hire the government to do so, and could pay per usage. If any should object to paying the government for this service, it would be ideal for the government to allow those few who wish to filter their own water to opt out of the general requirement of paying for a service that others wish to use, who do not object to paying for it. It should be clear that private interests (rather than government interests) might as easily (and more efficiently) rise to the task of providing clean water to the public on demand, just as has been done with other necessary commodities, like electricity, natural gas, motor fuel, groceries, etc.

As for public education, I can see how it might be in the public interest to have educated citizens—just as it is in the public interest to have disease-free citizens (our government, however, has not shown itself effective at providing the former, and is not likely to do better with the latter). However, there were very good educational options (and a highly literate populus) prior to the introduction of mandatory state education, and, for many centuries, we have had one of the most disease-free societies in the world, without nationalized health care.

There are an endless number of things that could be said to be generally beneficial to a society, but which the government is neither required, authorized, nor well-qualified to provide, and which can very adequately be provided by private investment and incentives. A moral citizenry is a better guarantee of good education, public health and general prosperity (all factors in the public interest) than the expansion of programs managed and regulated by government officials—who have not demonstrated themselves to be superior to the general population in any measure other than the ability to get themselves elected (often by dubious means).
Accordingly, taxation for undesired services does not amount to robbery. Rather, it is an issue of investment. If one is fundamentally unwilling to accept the terms of participation in their society, then they have the privilege of disinvesting. This is easier in the United States than it is in other parts of the world. No one is forced to retain their American citizenship, and with few exceptions (say, terrorist suspects), no one is forced to dwell under the authority of the American government, which is the enforcing agency of American society. If one wishes, they may renounce their citizenship and attempt to emigrate to another society. Should they wish to abandon societal constraints to a radical extent, they may become stateless persons and pursue a migrant life in international waters or settle in the unclaimed portion of Antarctica. But should they wish to participate in a society, such has its costs, including making oneself available to taxation according to the paradigms of the society.
Nothing I have written should be construed as the advocacy of a tax revolt nor of a general insurrection or withdrawal from society. If there is to be a nationalized health system, I will pay whatever taxes the government requires, just as I do now. I reserve the right, however, to object to government policies on principle. That happens to be a prerogative guaranteed to citizens in this country—and it is also an occasional obligation of Christians in any country.

Your suggestion of the simple option of renouncing citizenship, though presented as if it is an argument for the government to instate any oppressive policy it may choose, because the oppressed can simply leave, is of course no realistic option at all for any but a very few individuals, who may have the flexibility and resources to obtain alternative citizenship. If this option were a real one in the modern world, I would tend to agree with you. However, I doubt that you really see such as a realistic option, so it fails to stand as a legitimate argument for any point you are advocating.

I welcome your explanation of how G-d has apportioned the land on the North American continent.
I have no specific opinion on this, other than my general conviction that the continual adjustment of political boundaries around the globe is an ongoing affair which has been going on since ancient times. I do not believe that any ethnic group possesses a permanent divine sanction to hold any land in perpetuity, but I think that Christians are to accept the current international geographic boundaries as they are, until something (probably beyond our power) alters them again.
In a country where the citizenry is (theoretically) its own government, the citizenry has invested their selves and their assets into the paradigm of that society. Their mutual participation in that society makes their individual decisions one another’s business. And because we are co-participants in American society, what you do is my business, and what I do is yours.
Quite true, which is the very reason that Christians (and others) have the right to critique various governmental paradigms and to declare some behaviors (whether of private persons or of public policy) to be unjust. That is what I am engaged in doing presently.
Individual ethic should not be confused with social ethic.
In one sense, I agree. There are some activities that are ethical for private citizens and are not ethical for governments to perform (like the administration of charity), and there are also activities that are ethical for governments, but not for private citizens, to perform (like executing criminals). On the other hand, all parties, whether private or governmental share one ethical obligation, and that is that they not be unjust.
It is the just responsibility of a society to provide for the needs of its constituents. To do so, the society makes use of its resources, however scattered they may be amongst its constituents. And to do such with discretionary income is not robbery, any more than it is robbery for one’s body to draw unneeded blood or nutrients from one part to the benefit of another.
Providing for "needs" is a dangerously vague description of the duty of governments (though you used the term "society" instead of "government." The two are not the same thing, but the context of your argument leads me to believe that you are equating them). Let us compare that statement with a similar one—and one much more likely to find general agreement: "It is the just responsibility of parents to provide for the needs of their children." This is generally true, but there certainly are qualifications to the general statement that need to be considered.

First, the definition of a "need." If a daughter feels the need to have an abortion, is it the father's duty to provide such? If his children are not satisfied with a diet of beans and rice (a circumstance of a very large percentage of the world population), does this translate into a father's duty to bring home Snickers bars—or even better-tasting, wholesome food? If a poor man, in India, has a leprous child, and cannot afford to provide the best medical care that could be found in North America, is he neglecting his duty to provide for the "needs" of his child? We may say that we "need" expensive healthcare, advanced education, appetizing foods, reliable vehicles, comfortable homes, etc. But this does not mean that the government has a responsibility to confiscate the earnings of productive citizens in order to meet these "needs" for the unproductive. In fact, there is no objective measure by which we could insist on calling these things "needs." Many have subsisted on foods we would find unpalatable, lived in shelters that we would find uncomfortable, traveled in vehicles that we would find rickety and unreliable, made a bare living without higher education, etc. If others have always managed to do these things, by what tortured logic can we insist that any of these things, when considering ourselves, can be defined as "needs"? By what definition of "justice" can I justify the confiscation of another man's honestly-earned resources in order to guarantee me (or anyone else) that these "needs" of mine will be provided?

Second, there is the matter of means. There may indeed be what anyone would regard as legitimate "needs," but the absence of "means" to procure them. Sometimes a father might have the opportunity to meet his family's needs (which he would find impossible to provide by honest means) through the committing of a crime. Should he then commit the robbery, because it is his "duty" to meet his family's needs? Or should he realize that, as human beings, there are limitations upon the means available for us to meet felt needs? When, despite his most diligent and honest efforts, a man cannot feed himself or his family, I believe he honors God more by committing his case into the hands of the Almighty than he would by breaking the laws of the Almighty in order to prolong a life. The life he is seeking to prolong must eventually come to an end at some time in the will of God. Perhaps this is the time and the manner in which God chooses to bring it about.

This suggestion may sound impractically idealistic, but I believe that the martyrs, and Jesus Himself, acted upon the same principle—to wit, that it is better to die for one's determination to obey God, than to prolong earthly life by denying Him and violating His commands. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it" (Matt.16:25). Many of us can see that this principle holds true in the extreme cases, like those of Christ and Christian martyrs, but have difficulty applying the same (universal) truth to mundane, daily affairs.

The matter of healthcare comes under this same consideration. If I or someone for whom I am responsible is sick, and can be saved by available medical interventions, then it would seem to be my duty to avail myself of this option. But if I cannot afford this service (other than by robbing someone else), then I am under no obligation to avail myself of this benefit. God has not, in such a case, chosen to provide for this option, and thus has made known His will that some other option be accepted—whether it be death, diminished capacity, or miraculous healing. The acceptance of any of the above would be no sin, but to rob another man in order to obtain that which cannot be had by honest means would be a sin.

The government has no money to pay for healthcare. In fact, it is already in enormous debt for projects which it has no mandate to conduct, and for the payment of which it is robbing several generations yet unborn! What the government lacks means to provide, it is under no obligation to provide this benefit to its citizens. To obtain money by taking involuntary contributions from the rich at gunpoint does not strike me as a moral option. If those who have the money to do so wish to voluntarily contribute to the medical expenses of the poor, this is always an option—but it needs no governmental intervention. In fact, the only factor added to this option by the introduction of government involvement is the gun to the head of the rich. Such robbery is no more ethical when committed by groups of citizens calling themselves "officials" than when it is done privately by a thug in an alley.

This is my view. I can see no moral sense in any other.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by Homer » Tue Jul 28, 2009 9:36 pm

Hi Steve,

You wrote:
The matter of healthcare comes under this same consideration. If I or someone for whom I am responsible is sick, and can be saved by available medical interventions, then it would seem to be my duty to avail myself of this option. But if I cannot afford this service (other than by robbing someone else), then I am under no obligation to avail myself of this benefit. God has not, in such a case, chosen to provide for this option, and thus has made known His will that some other option be accepted—whether it be death, diminished capacity, or miraculous healing. The acceptance of any of the above would be no sin, but to rob another man in order to obtain that which cannot be had by honest means would be a sin.
When our grandaughter was in the hospital, as mentioned earlier, our son's employer provided insurance paid almost all the enormous bill. (Actually, our son and his co-workers paid the bill; insurance is a form of wages.) While visiting our grandaughter at the hospital, it appeared to me that there were children of poor people there being treated (it is a large, regional children's hospital). It was good to know these poor children were being cared for. The hospital has a fund raising drive to raise funds for such cases, but it is obvious that cost shifting occurs where our grandaughter's bill probably included the costs of treating some poor children.

Considering what you wrote above, do you think the parents of the poor children, who had no hope of paying their bill, should have opted for no treatment? Being a hierarchicalist, it seems to me the law of love would trump the considerations you bring up. And there seems to be a tacit agreement in place in our society to take care of matters in this way, lacking a better system.

User avatar
steve
Posts: 3392
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by steve » Tue Jul 28, 2009 10:36 pm

Homer,

I have no objection to spending the funds that are already collected and designated for such uses. That funds have been collected means they must be used, or else returned to their original owners. There is no sense in letting the monies on hand sit and gather cobwebs. What I am opposed to is the instituting of policies to involuntarily take people's money for such funding in the first place.

In the case you presented, it sounds like the cost of treating the poor was absorbed in the charges to the insured patients. This may not be equitable, but if the hospital is a private business, with a right to set its own fees, this is not, in principle, different from a retail store increasing its prices on all items sold to paying customers in order to make up for losses due to shoplifters. Also, it sounds as if the subsidies for the poor, in this hospital's case, were partially gathered through a voluntary charitable effort. Nothing in this scenario appears to be immoral or unethical—unless one wishes to characterize the inflated charges to your son's insurance company this way. However, health insurance, at present, represents a voluntary association of participants, who have agreed, without duress, to pay whatever the premiums may be. The premiums may be unnecessarily exorbitant, but they are not taken at gunpoint.

Jill
Posts: 582
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:16 pm

Post by Jill » Wed Jul 29, 2009 4:42 pm

.
Last edited by Jill on Thu Feb 17, 2011 2:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Sean
Posts: 407
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 4:48 am
Location: Smithton, IL USA

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by Sean » Thu Jul 30, 2009 3:46 am

This was a very interesting radio discussion Steve had on his radio program. I enjoy considering others positions on the subject. I'd love to post a million pages of the thoughts running through my head but everyone has to make up their own mind on the issue. I would like to mention the side that isn't disussed much and that is the side of the medically insured who get all kinds of prescription drugs and such for $5-$10 per bottle & refill for things they can live without, or not ask if there is a cheaper generic form of the drug to save money. Sure, it may not cost you anything but the small co-pay, but it costs everyone else in your insurance group! The same goes for office visits when none are really necessary. Some people have admitted going regularly just to have someone to talk to. They admitted that they don't care who has to pay the bill as long as they don't. The government and Hospitals aren't the only abusers of the system.

One thing I think is wise to keep in mind:

1 Tim 6:8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.

Wanting more and calling it a "need" will never end for some.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3123
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Insurance for Healthcare

Post by darinhouston » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:39 am

I'm a bit behind in listening to the radio show, and just listened to these sections yesterday on my way home, but the conversation seemed to morph also to discussions of lending, etc. I agree strongly with Steve that a mortgage is usually used by people to buy a home that is above their present capabilities, but we should keep in mind that there are people who can afford to pay for the home they live in but choose out of financial stewardship to obtain a low-interest mortgage and invest the cash on hand for growth and our future care and ministry. I realize that's not "hand to mouth," but Joseph wasn't exactly hand to mouth either and it's a pretty fair prediction in this world that if we ever hope to leave a secular job to pursue more full time ministry roles or if we see that we are almost certain to need to care financially for a loved one that a storehouse might be of value to the Kingdom (both of which are planned in my case). In this case, caring for one's credit and saving some money is a wise and prudent stewardship.

On a related note, I have to question whether an individual in a gathering who chooses not to have secular insurance out of personal conviction and spending the premiums on something else (maybe living in a better home) is doing the loving thing if they could have taken care of their own responsibility for their medical care in that way and instead ended up calling on the resources of the gathering that could have been used for other purposes. To say "I would rather my brother care for me rather than engage with that secular institution" just doesn't seem all that loving in this society. Insurance is in some ways communal but with a significant abstraction from its participants (no yoking) and contractually defined benefit (usually with no affirmative obligations to constrain a believer except as conditions for payment/benefit). Conceptually, how is that different than taking an apartment lease from a secular organization? Or buying a home in a deed restricted area along with non-Christians? Paul seemed to take a secular job for the very purpose not to be a burden on the church. Carried to the extreme, it seems that even coinage and currency, themselves are a form of engagement with secular financial institutions and we find the apostles using money instead of relying solely on barter, etc. with only Christians.

Post Reply

Return to “Radio Program Topics”