Alternative Views of Hell

Post by **_Anonymous** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 1:25 pm

Steve,
You have given a good defense of the conditional mortality view but I'm having one problem. The bible speaks of God resurrecting both the rightous and the unrightous, therefore we will all have resurrected bodies. If this is the case it would seem to follow that God has a purpose for it, other than telling unbelievers why they are about to be snuffed out, so to speak. Punishing the wicked in hell before annihilating them seems rather pointless and doesn't exactly mesh with the God revealed in scripture, although I don't know the mind of God.

If the soul of the unbeliever is not eternal then one would think they are annihilated upon the death of their body. Resurrecting the dead into physical bodies seems like a pointless step if their end is destruction anyway. This leads me to believe that unbelievers will very probably still exist in resurrected bodies but won't live in fellowship with God and the saints. I guess some call this "eternal conciouss tormet" but the torment doesn't have to occupy every moment of the hereafter. Rather, the torment could be recognition of guilt that can never be mended.

I also realize that the common view among Christians is that those people who die without hearing the gospel are indeed doomed to hell. This bothers me because, like I mentioned in an earlier email to you, the bible has been inaccessible to the common man of his day throughout most of history. Also, from the old testament we have people like Rehab who were able to seek after God without ever reading the Hebrew scriptures. She merely heard about some of the things God supposedly did for Israel and believed. Paul tells the men in Athens that God places each of us in our respective roles in history so we would reach out to him. That would mean people are placed in remote areas without access to the gospel by none other than God himself. How could this be?

If you could touch on the points I raised above I would greatly appreciate it.

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 9:50 pm

The annihilationists don't believe everyone is snuffed out, rather they believe God apportions out appropriate punishment based on their works relative to the light they had. The question i have is why is it assumed that this life is the only opportunity for redemption? I don't see it in scripture and the prooftext verse which is "once to die and then the judgement" is unconvincing to me. Does the word judgement mean conviction? The greek word translated as judgement i believe is "krises" which has the same meaning as the english word crises. Is a crises center a damnation center or is it a situation where critical decisions must be made and critical actions taken? I don't believe God has any desire to eternally torture or torment people and his timetable is so long in everything else ,so why for this extremely critical event of salvation would he only leave the door open during our brief lifetime. It does'nt make sense to me nor do i see it as scriptural just another of man's traditions. I'm not saying repentence and faith in Christ is not necessary only that i believe God at his word which is that he really is long suffering and patient and does'nt want anyone to perish. God said he is long suffering and patient so exactly what does it mean?

Post by **_Homer** » Tue Jul 12, 2005 11:48 pm

Thought I might comment here. I noticed Matt. 25:31-46 has been brought up. I believe this is one of the most misunderstood and misused passages in the NT. Cultural anthropologists say that this passage is not about helping the poor per se, but actually about hospitality.

It is always good to consider the meaning of actions (works). Hospitality meant accepting or rejecting someone. The anthropologists say that in Jesus' day, a new person encountered would either be accepted as a friend or rejected, there would be no middle ground. The hospitality and care shown to Christians as Jesus describes in the subject passage had the meaning of accepting the Christian and the gospel message he brought. To me, this makes Jesus meaning clear and makes sense. We are not saved by works, and many of the the poor are wicked and sinful, and certainly not Jesus' "brethren".

For biblical evidence of the assertion about the meaning of hospitality, see 2 John 10-11. Also recall how the "hospitality" shown to Paul changed drastically when his message was rejected!

I apologize if I have gotten off the main topic of the thread but felt I should mention this. This has been an interesting topic.

In Christ, Homer

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:29 am

I think some of the responses are very informative. It does make sense to me that the "eternal fire" may be God since these are included in his attributes. It seems to me that annihalation does'nt work because in Rev 21.14 it seems that death and hades is destroyed before unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire. " Then death and hades were thrown into the lake of fire . This is the second death,the lake of fire." After death is thrown into the lake and apparently destroyed than unbelievers are thrown into the lake but at that point it seems that death is no longer an option. Therefore that leaves 2 choices in my view which are that either God torments people forever or that he purifies and refines unbelievers through the fire of judgement.

Post by **_Anonymous** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:03 am

Steve7150, are you a universalist in general or just with regard to hell? If you do, in fact, hold the universal salvation viewpoint I'd like to ask your opinion on all the passages in scripture that talk about the destruction of the wicked as well as the clear distinction made between the "saved" and the "unsaved." These are the most problamatic scriptural problems I have with the univesalist view. Steve referenced serveral of these verses in his first response.

The only thing that stops me from outright rejecting the universal salvation view is the fact that there ARE some scriptures that speak of this, or something similar. That is why I'm torn on the issue. Also, what exactly is meant by purification and which scriptures seem to support this? Also, Steve mentioned that four of the six early churches believed in universal salvation... but how close were their views to those held today by universalists?

Post by **_Damon** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:53 am

STEVE7150 wrote:...Therefore that leaves 2 choices in my view which are that either God torments people forever or that he purifies and refines unbelievers through the fire of judgement.

Although the way we each arrived at this conclusion was different, I myself came to this same conclusion a while back in another thread. Not only that, I came to the conclusion that God does both, depending on the circumstances!

If you're interested, take a look at this post and let me know what you think.

Damon

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:16 pm

Guest, No, just open to wherever scripture goes. Sodom was destroyed but apparently they will be raised. Ezekial 16.55 in speaking to Isreal says "Your sisters ,Sodom with her daughters ,will return to their former state." And John 5.28-29 " Do not marvel at this for an hour is coming in which ALL who are in the tombs will hear his voice,and will come forth,those who did good deeds to a resurrection of life,those who committed evil to a resurrection of judgement."
So although some perish within an age it appears to me that everyone gets raised to life or judgement (krises).
And Paul says that "God will be all in all." What does all mean? Almost everyone would say all does'nt really mean all. Through Abraham all the families of the earth will be blessed. What does all mean?
1 Tim 2.4 " who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Gods desire is to have all men saved so how significant is Gods desire , will he let his desire be overcome by mans nature?

Post by **_STEVE7150** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 9:31 pm

Damon, While your concept is very interesting the fact is that it sounds like a kinder gentler eternal punishment but still eternal punishment. I don't think scripture describes eternal punishment but age abiding chastisement. I think the translators of most bibles did their job within the framework of their theology.

Post by **_Homer** » Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:53 pm

How would anyone be purified by any period of time in hell? Is there some other way to be made pure, fit for being in God's presence, other than the blood of the Lamb Jesus?

Isn't it significant that everyone will acknowledge Jesus as Lord, but it isn't stated they will acknowledge and trust Him as Savior?

Is there any significant difference between the Universalist view and the Catholic view of purgatory?

Just thinking.....

In Jesus, Homer

Post by **_Damon** » Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:19 am

Steve, I understand what you're saying but I offer the following thought to consider. If, by having faith in God during our limited human lifetimes we are rewarded with eternal life, why does it seem unjust to reward unrepentant wickedness with eternal punishment?

That's what makes the most sense to me, anyway. *shrugs*

Damon