1 Th 4 - 5

[Douglas]

I have always wondered about the "wording" of a couple of verses in 1 Th 4, in particular the chronolgical explanation that Paul gives his readers, and for what purpose. In particular verse 15. "For we tell you this by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep." From the context of the previous verses to this it doesn't seem to me that the Paul thinks his readers are concerned about who goes first, but has to do more with not grieving for fellow Christians that have died.

Paul then goes into telling his readers a detailed account of chronological events that most of us would say still have not happened. That is that the dead in Christ rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Was it Pauls intention to give his readers a "timeline" of events for something that is yet still to come? And if so, as most would say is true, why? Why not just tell his readers of the time that those who have fallen asleep in Christ are with Him, and when they die, they also will join them and Christ.

Doug

[look2jesus]

Hello Douglas,

Just to give you my thoughts, it seems clear to me that the Thessalonians, whom Paul is writing to, had been taught about the coming of the Lord but, perhaps, not completely--they seemed to still have questions about it that Timothy must have related to Paul once he returned from visiting there. It seems to me they had a pretty good grasp of what to expect for themselves--they were to be looking for the Lord's return--but this seems to have left them in doubt as to what would happen to their loved ones who had died in the faith. Would they miss out this great event? This is what Paul is addressing, imo.

l2j

[Douglas]

It seems to me they had a pretty good grasp of what to expect for themselves--they were to be looking for the Lord's return--but this seems to have left them in doubt as to what would happen to their loved ones who had died in the faith. Would they miss out this great event?

verse 13 - 15.... And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep

Reading this again, I see a little different reason for possible sorrow that is mentioned, and Paul gives it to us in the verse... "as also the rest who have not hope" And if the "rest who have no hope" are non-Christians, then we could say, in the context of the entire section, it is a matter of what happens to those who have died. And those who die without Christ have no hope, and therefore are sorrowful, yet we who die as Christians, go to be with the Lord forever.

I think a strong case can be made that the "to the presence of the Lord" in verse 15, which is sometimes translated "coming of the Lord" in this context is not necessarily the "end of the world", but could be physical death for the individual. At which time we are resurected into the presence of the Lord, which is what Paul tells us in Romans.. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

Just some thoughts I would run by this group of brothers.
Doug

[look2jesus]

Douglas,

I think you're misunderstanding Paul's argument concerning those who have no hope. When a non-believer loses a loved one, what hope do they have concerning the deceased? On the other hand, we, as christians, when we lose a loved one who is a believer, do not need to be overly sorrowful because we have the hope and the assurance that they have gone on to be with the Lord. Paul isn't speaking of the dead who have no hope but the living, who've lost loved ones. He's simply contrasting the difference in attitude, concerning the death of loved ones, between believers and non-believers.

And those who die without Christ have no hope, and therefore are sorrowful

Paul nowhere suggests this. He's not talking about how the dead feel or whether their case is hopeless or not. He's talking about living people and how they feel concerning others who have died.

I think a strong case can be made that the "to the presence of the Lord" in verse 15, which is sometimes translated "coming of the Lord" in this context is not necessarily the "end of the world", but could be physical death for the individual. At which time we are resurected into the presence of the Lord, which is what Paul tells us in Romans.. Absent from the body, present with the Lord.

Let's look at the entire context of this section. (I'm not sure why we're using Young's Literal Translation, but here it is. )

13 And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,
14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,
15 for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep,
16 because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
18 so, then, comfort ye one another in these words.

First, I would point out that the word presence is attached to the Lord, not to us. It's not our presence with Him but, rather, His presence with us. Secondly, I would have you look at what Paul is saying about the presence of the Lord. He mentions "we who are living--who do remain over to the presence of the Lord--may not precede those asleep". It's hard to imagine that Paul would use such language to describe, as you said, "physical death for the individual". You would have to completely ignore what he said before and after the use of the "parousia" phrase, it seems to me. Besides, this presence is clearly seen as Christ coming down from Heaven, as stated in vs.16, not our going to heaven to be with Him.

Is there some reason for trying to see this text the way you described? Just curious where it might fit in with your overall view of things Thanks.

l2j

[Douglas]

It's funny how even our own writings can be mis-understood. I did not intend to imply that the dead are sorrowful, but that those that are still alive sorrow for the dead that they have lost. And therefore I agree with what you say in your first paragraph.

I only used the YLT because I was flipping through various translations seeing what I could gleen from them and didn't pay close attention to which one I copied and pasted to here. lol. A helpful translation at times, but not one I intended to post for others to use.. sorry

I am horible at trying to describe or explain things in writing, and I am sorry for not being more clear. Unfortunatly I cannot even claim English as a second language.

When we Christians die, we go to be "present with the Lord". I believe that in some sense, Christ comes for each individual at the point of physical death. And until we physically die, we are alive and remain on this sin filled earth, and do not go into the presence of God until physical death occurs. But we know that those in Christ who have already died, have already gone into the presence of God and are currently with Him now and forever. Chronologicaly speaking, The Christians that have died are already with God, that is they have gone first, and I think Paul is telling his readers that they will join God and there dead fellow Christians at the "coming of Christ", which I think is upon our physical death. We read in 1 Co 15 that all will be made alive, but EACH in his own order. Christ , the firstfruits, then when Christ comes those who belong to him. And if you don't jump to the assumption that "Christ's coming" is the end of the world, then you might be able to see what I am trying to say. For in 1 Co 15 it then says, THEN comes the end. I believe there is an END. When the last Christian has died, and Christ has come for him, THEN the end has come. Something I have learned from Steve is that "Christ coming" does not always mean the same thing, and depends on the context, as in Matt 24, His "coming" was no the end of the world, right? It was the end of something, but not the end of the world. And therefore, Is Christ's "coming" in 1 Th 4 and 5 the end of the world? or something else? Our full preterist brothers would put all of "Christ's coming" in the new testament in AD 70 I think, and I don't think that is correct.

I think physical death is going to be a "resurection" of some sort. A change, in a twinkling of an eye, when we put off the mortal body. And my current believe is that our immortal, spiritual body will be given to us at that time as well, just like Christs body. Either we are dissembodied souls or we get our immortal bodies. Not that I care, because I will be with God and I am sure nothing else will matter, and if there is a "time" between physical death and the immortal, spiritual body then thats fine as well, I just don't think the Scripture clearly states that is the case, but in fact tells us otherwise. but again, that realy doesn't matter to me, as long as I am with God.

I also think that there is a literal "end" to this world in which there will be a new heaven and earth, like Romans 8 tells us, and I do believe that to be literal not figurative.

Now I know some of you are thinking of John 5:28 when Jesus states that a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out - good and evil. Most, if not all of you would believe this to be a still future event. right? I disagree, I would say that He is speaking of the time of His resurrection. When Christ died and rose again, I believe this happened. All those in the grave, who had died up to that point in time, came forth, either to a resurrection resulting in life or condemnation. What Jesus said I believe happened at His resurrection.

And when Paul tells us in Acts 24:15 about the resurrection, he says there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. This does not state it is a singular event in time, that understanding must be read into the text. All it is saying is that everyone is going to be resurrected, it is not stating that the resurrection of everyone is at the same time.

Heb 9:27. people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment. It doesn't say we die, then wait....... then face judgment.

Doug

[look2jesus]

Thanks Douglas,

That is much clearer to me. I'll post back when I have more time. God bless.

l2j

[Suzana]

That's an interesting variation Douglas, will have to look into it a bit.
p.s.

Unfortunatly I cannot even claim English as a second language.

I can!

[Douglas]

We have had a bit of slow activity to chew on lately, so I thought I would add some more food for thought.

Heb 9:28 so also, after Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many, to those who eagerly await Him, he will appear a second time, not to bear sin but to bring salvation.
Does this verse sound like something that is specific to only a "final" generation left on earth at the end of time? I guess you could ask the question another way.... For those Christians who have died prior to the end of the world, who we would say are "present with the Lord" at this very time, are they eagerly awaiting Him still? Once I am with God, I cannot imagine wanting or needing anything else. How can we be "with God" and still be waiting for Him to appear again? It would make much more sense to me to say that for those who have died, who are in the presence of God as we speak, that He has manifested Himself to them, and they are no longer waiting, but that the "waiting" ends when you physically die.

Jn 11:24. Martha said, "I know that he will come back to life again in the resurrection at the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live even in he dies, and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
It is interesting that Martha states her understanding that the resurrection is at the last day and Jesus appears to confirms this, and also clarifies with "I am the resurrection and the life". At the time that Jesus and Martha had this discussion, He had not yet died and risen from the dead, and therefore Jesus clarifies to Martha that He is the resurrection and that the resurrection is IN HIM. Those who died prior to Jesus being risen from the dead had to wait for THE RESURRECTION, that is Jesus resurrection. And when Jesus rose from the dead, all who had died prior to that point in time rose with Him, some to everlasting life, others to condemnation. And from that point on (the resurrection of Christ) we who are in Christ prior to physical death, never die, at least not in the sense that those who died prior to the resurrection.

The statement "the last day" has 7 occurrences in John, and none of them specify or even imply an understanding of "the end of the world" Any idea of an and of the world aspect to this statement must be transported, or read into the text. Now obviously, the statement "the last day" must mean something, and I would argue it means the last day that a person is physically alive in a mortal body 6 out of the 7 times in John. When someone dies physically, it is "the last day" for that person. We often say that about someone who has passed away, like.. "Steve's last day was a good one". Each and every one of us will have a "last day". And on that last day we shed this mortal body.

2 Tim 4:1 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom.
It sounds like Judgement is going to happen at His appearing. And I don't think anyone would argue that. The big question here is when is His appearing? At the end of time? AD70? or as I would suggest, when a person physically dies. Heb 9:27 it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment. A question arises then... the above verse states ... "is going (future tense) to judge the living and the dead." Well if the "living and the dead" are going (future tense) to be judged, that must still be future. Right? well.... consider the possibility that "the dead" as mentioned in the above verse is not referring to those who have physically died, but are living non-believers at the time. That is to say, those who are living without Christ, they are as good as dead. doomed!

1 Peter 4:3-6 For the time that has passed was sufficient for you to do what the non-Christians desire. You lived then in debauchery, evil desires, drunkenness, carousing, drinking bouts, and wanton idolatries. So they are astonished when you do not rush with them into the same flood of wickedness, and they vilify you. They will face a reckoning before Jesus Christ who stands ready to judge the living and the dead. Now it was for this very purpose that the gospel was preached to those who are now dead, so that though they were judged in the flesh by human standards they may live spiritually by God's standards.
Here again we have the statement "stands ready to judge the living and the dead." And again, It makes sense that the living are the Christians and the dead are the non-Christians (those that live in debauchery, evil desires, ect). and as the passage states the very purpose of preaching the gospel to the non-Christians (the dead) was that they may live. Again we can come back to Heb 9:27 and state each person in appointed once to die, then the judgement. Everyone upon death will face Jesus Christ who stands ready to judge (the Christian and the non-Christian, or another way of saying that is the living and the dead)

2 Th 1:7 and to you who are being afflicted to give rest together with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. With flaming fire He will mete out punishment on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
I love this passage. Paul tells his readers that rest will be given to them... when?? When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels. Are Pauls readers (the Christians) still being afflicted? I don't think so. We can be fairly certain that they have physically died and are now "present with the Lord"... That is to be absent from the body, present with the Lord. And therefore I would say they have rest. Logically then we could say that the Lord Jesus DID reveal Himself to them already. Again it is appointed for people to die once, and then to face judgment. Rest for the Christians and punishment on those who do not know God.

[look2jesus]

Hey Douglas,

Sorry I didn't get back to you right away, but I've been wanting to.

One of the major problems I have with what you've posted (yes, there are more than one! ) is that your view is not consistent with what the Bible says about Jesus' resurrection. What I mean by that is that the scheme you've laid out doesn't seem to allow for a physical resurrection from the dead for believer's that, in any way, resembles the resurrection of Christ.

I think physical death is going to be a "resurection" of some sort. A change, in a twinkling of an eye, when we put off the mortal body. And my current believe is that our immortal, spiritual body will be given to us at that time as well, just like Christs body.

And they found the stone rolled away from the tomb, but when they went in they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. Lk 24:2-3

Then Simon Peter came, following him, and went into the tomb. He saw the linen cloths lying there, and the face cloth, which had been on Jesus’ head, not lying with the linen cloths but folded up in a place by itself. Jn 20:6-7

But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself. Php 3:20-21

Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure. 1 Jn 3:2-3

When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Col 3:4

What I want to show by pointing out these verses is that Jesus' body, the same body that walked the earth for thirty plus years, was not around after His resurrection. When He rose from the dead, His original body had been transformed (I'll bet that happened in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye too! ) and no one has seen His old body since. Paul clearly teaches that Christ will transform our lowly bodies to be like Jesus' glorious body. Surely you don't believe that all the graves of all the believers who have died since Jesus rose from the dead are empty, do you? But, if not, why not?

I also think that there is a literal "end" to this world in which there will be a new heaven and earth, like Romans 8 tells us, and I do believe that to be literal not figurative.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Ro 8:18-24

I agree with you concerning Romans 8, but I'm curious...Does Paul not equate "the revealing of the sons of God", our "adoption as sons", and "the redemption of our bodies"? And is it not clear that this all takes place at the same time that "creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God"? And what is meant by "the redemption of our bodies" if it is not a reference to the resurrection (i.e., the traditional view)?

Now I know some of you are thinking of John 5:28 when Jesus states that a time is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out - good and evil. Most, if not all of you would believe this to be a still future event. right? I disagree, I would say that He is speaking of the time of His resurrection. When Christ died and rose again, I believe this happened. All those in the grave, who had died up to that point in time, came forth, either to a resurrection resulting in life or condemnation. What Jesus said I believe happened at His resurrection.

Could you please explain on what grounds this interpretation is based upon? Again, I'm very curious.

You know, Douglas, I was thinking about how I might answer a similar question as to what I'm about to ask you, and I realized that it could be difficult to try and do but I know we all have different ways that we sort out these kind of things in our minds as we go about studying the Scriptures and this seems to me a very strange view of resurrection, generally speaking, and I wondered if you could explain a little bit how it developed and/or what led to what in your studies. Anyway, that's all I have time for tonight. God bless you, and thanks for the dialogue!

l2j

[Suzana]

I believe that in some sense, Christ comes for each individual at the point of physical death.

...Chronologicaly speaking, The Christians that have died are already with God, that is they have gone first, and I think Paul is telling his readers that they will join God and there dead fellow Christians at the "coming of Christ", which I think is upon our physical death.

...For in 1 Co 15 it then says, THEN comes the end. I believe there is an END. When the last Christian has died, and Christ has come for him, THEN the end has come.

(underline mine)

But Paul specifically said that we shall NOT all die - to me the wording in the Corinthian passage implies that the change of those alive at the time, and the raising of the dead to incorruption, does happen all at the same time.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.