My Case for eternal Hell

[Ambassador791]

Here is a verse that makes my point a little clearer than John 3/16

Romans 6/23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We will pay for our sin unless Jesus pays. If we pay in the second death, Jesus has not paid and he is not our savior.

Is there one time that Jesus' sacrifice is applied and no later? I believe that this verse says that there is.If you tast this death, you are paying for your sins because death IS the payment. When the time comes in which we would have to pay the debt, this is when Jesus' sacrific is applied, he pays it for us. If Jesus died to pay this debt, and we are paying it in virtue of being in the second death, that is a sure sign that what he paid was not applied to us.

Thus, Jesus would not be out savior.

[steve7150]

Romans 6/23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We will pay for our sin unless Jesus pays. If we pay in the second death, Jesus has not paid and he is not our savior.

Is there one time that Jesus' sacrifice is applied and no later? I believe that this verse says that there is.If you tast this death, you are paying for your sins because death IS the payment. When the time comes in which we would have to pay the debt, this is when Jesus' sacrific is applied, he pays it for us. If Jesus died to pay this debt, and we are paying it in virtue of being in the second death, that is a sure sign that what he paid was not applied to us.






I think the wages of sin refers to spiritual death "for death reigned from Adam to Moses" surely can't mean physical death which reigned after Moses until Jesus returns.
Spiritual death ends when you know God and Jesus presense is at the Lake of Fire (Rev 14) not because he is a torturer but because he cares about lost sheep as long as they remain lost or until they are found.

[Homer]

Hi Steve7150,

You wrote:

I think the wages of sin refers to spiritual death "for death reigned from Adam to Moses" surely can't mean physical death which reigned after Moses until Jesus returns.

IMO you have misunderstood Paul. I think what he was saying was that in spite of the Law having not yet been given, all mankind was condemned to physical death because of the sin of Adam and Eve. The Law could not have made things better, it only increased their guilt, for the law condemns.

God bless, Homer

[steve7150]

I think the wages of sin refers to spiritual death "for death reigned from Adam to Moses" surely can't mean physical death which reigned after Moses until Jesus returns.

IMO you have misunderstood Paul. I think what he was saying was that in spite of the Law having not yet been given, all mankind was condemned to physical death because of the sin of Adam and Eve. The Law could not have made things better, it only increased their guilt, for the law condemns.



Amb,

Yes but physical death continued to reign past Moses but Paul said it reigned "from Adam to Moses" , if he meant the law did'nt make it better why not say "until Christ". Then Christ conquered physical death with his sacrifice but Moses did'nt. However spiritual death or separation at least had a God given method to be finished through the Mosaic sacrificial system which at least covered sins year to year.

[Ambassador791]

(I probably won't respond to any posts for a few days, I have 10 hour drive tomorrow, and then 10 hours back the next day)

I think the wages of sin refers to spiritual death "for death reigned from Adam to Moses" surely can't mean physical death which reigned after Moses until Jesus returns.Spiritual death ends when you know God and Jesus presense is at the Lake of Fire

You are saying that the payment due to sin (the wages of sin) is experienced by sinners as they are apart from God, on earth (or hell).I think that they do "pay" for their sins (because sin brings bad circumstances and pain), not because God is punishing them, but because they have judged them selves worthy of death (acts 13).

The same way a boy, cut off from his family is "dead" to the father, we put ourselves on a path of death, away from the living God, this is as good as dead. But, this death on earth is not the wages of sin, look at this verse:

Luke 12/58,59 "As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny"

On earth does any sinner pay the very last penny (pay it all, even his last sin)? Can man pay for all his sins in this life? No, this is telling us of payment of sins, after this life. This is the wages of sin that Jesus saves from, because once you start to pay "you will not get out until YOU have paid the last penny".

Notice that you pay what you owe by being thrown into prison after the Judgment. There is a time before the judgment in which you still have not been required to pay. At this time you may still seek reconciliation. Jesus says, be reconciled, while you still can, the judge’s judgment will require you to pay “ EVERY LAST PENNY”, not some for you and then some for Jesus. It also says “you will not get out until you pay”.

Another reason you can’t say that this is a judgment that happens in everyday life is because the parable contrasts free life before the judgment (when reconciliation may be found), with the payment of sins in prison when reconciliation is no longer an option...only the payment of sins. The point is that time for reconciliation WILL run out.

Does this not suggest that reconciliation is on one side of Judgement and that payment (until ALL is paid by the sinner, not Jesus) on the other side of judgment?

Jesus says that once the sinner goes to prison, he will pay for every sin before getting out, because of this fact he should try to repent first. If he could seek reconciliation after the judgment, what would be the point of saying, seek reconciliation BEFORE you are judged!?

If you say that reconciliation can be found on both sides of judgment, this parable means nothing, it’s main point lost.

You might say, look, it says that the sinner will be able to reach the end of his judgment “after he has paid the last penny” . O.k, but then you will have to say that he will have paid for his own sins, not Jesus. Jesus did not save him. Will there be people in heaven that paid for their sins and not Jesus? Jesus says that "YOU" will pay every last sin "BEFORE GETTING OUT", so you can’t say…well it’s really Jesus that paid. No, read the text.

Not to mention, you don’t want a doctrine that suggests that man can pay for his own sin during his own life, this would create a monster that creates all kinds of doctrines about how to pay off your own sin, like people who inflict pain on themselves and kinds of karmic systems.

[Todd]

On earth does any sinner pay the very last penny (pay it all, even his last sin)? Can man pay for all his sins in this life? No, this is telling us of payment of sins, after this life. This is the wages of sin that Jesus saves from, because once you start to pay "you will not get out until YOU have paid the last penny".

Ambassador791,

You raise the question whether a man can pay for his own sins in this life. This is an interesting question. Let's take the example of a man convicted of theft. He goes to prison and serves a full term of 10 years. He is then released. We would say that he has paid his debt to society. To me, this is a perfect example of being "rewarded according to our works." He stole something and was appropriately rewarded (or punished). He then resumes his life, yet still yoked with the handicap of being an exconvict. The person from whom he stole may or may not have been made whole. If not, the wake of his transgression has its adverse affects. So, chances are, the full affect of the sin can never be made right again.

But here is the question at hand; is this man to suffer additional punishment in the afterlife? I say no. I believe he has appropriately suffered throughout his life for his transgression. Even you said that "sin brings bad circumstances and pain." You continued on to say that this is not God's punishment, but I say, that is exactly what it is. This man has to bear the guilt and shame of this sin until he either repents and turns to Christ for forgiveness, or until death. At death both the sin and the punishment ceases. At least, that's the way I understand it.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

This verse seems to indicate that God's wrath is being poured out (in this life) on those who reject Christ. God doesn't wait unit the afterlife to punish.

Jesus says that once the sinner goes to prison, he will pay for every sin before getting out, because of this fact he should try to repent first. If he could seek reconciliation after the judgment, what would be the point of saying, seek reconciliation BEFORE you are judged!?

In my example, the man could have returned the stolen goods before he was arrested and perhaps found mercy. However he evidently did not do so and was thrown into prison and completed his full term.

Todd

[steve7150]

This man has to bear the guilt and shame of this sin until he either repents and turns to Christ for forgiveness, or until death. At death both the sin and the punishment ceases. At least, that's the way I understand it.


Hi Todd,

What scripture supports your view that punishment ceases at death? I'm sure you posted it in the past but i can't recall, thanks.

[steve7150]

Luke 12/58,59 "As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny"

On earth does any sinner pay the very last penny (pay it all, even his last sin)? Can man pay for all his sins in this life? No, this is telling us of payment of sins, after this life. This is the wages of sin that Jesus saves from, because once you start to pay "you will not get out until YOU have paid the last penny".

Notice that you pay what you owe by being thrown into prison after the Judgment. There is a time before the judgment in which you still have not been required to pay. At this time you may still seek reconciliation. Jesus says, be reconciled, while you still can, the judge’s judgment will require you to pay “ EVERY LAST PENNY”, not some for you and then some for Jesus. It also says “you will not get out until you pay”.



Amb,

I agree with you that this is an allusion to the lake of fire but where we differ is that if the sinner even could pay his sin debt then that does not make him righteous, it makes him debt free but he still has a criminal record. He is still not justified or righteous , he simply is paid up but that record still exists on the books. Repentance and receiving Christ as Lord and Savior is still needed to obtain righteousness and wipe away the record from the book of life.

[Todd]

This man has to bear the guilt and shame of this sin until he either repents and turns to Christ for forgiveness, or until death. At death both the sin and the punishment ceases. At least, that's the way I understand it.


Hi Todd,

What scripture supports your view that punishment ceases at death? I'm sure you posted it in the past but i can't recall, thanks.

Steve7150,

This is a fair question. I suppose if I had a scripture or two that could nail that down, the view I hold might be the majority opinion. In the past I have posted scriptures which state that God pours out his wrath in this life (Rom 1:18, John 3:36, Rom 13:1-6). Also, the examples in the Old Testament where God poured out his wrath, it was always on the living, not the dead. There are not any scriptures that I am aware of that explicitly state that God will punish after death or the resurrection. The ones that are commonly thought to teach a post-resurrection judgment/punishment, I believe can be understood to apply to this life. The main thing is the total absence of any post-resurrection judgment language in 1 Cor 15 and Rom 8:18-23.

Obviously, I cannot present an air-tight case, but at this time, to me, this view fits the whole of scripture (and logic) best. I will admit that there are a few scriptures with wording that are difficult to reconcile with this view.

Todd

[steve7150]

There are not any scriptures that I am aware of that explicitly state that God will punish after death or the resurrection. The ones that are commonly thought to teach a post-resurrection judgment/punishment, I believe can be understood to apply to this life






OK but if we are all resurrected to judgment and we are judged by our works , would'nt our works be a past event and if so would'nt the judgment which is based on works already done, be a future judgment based on works done during our lifetime?