Has Every Jot and Tittle of the Law Passed?

[Mellontes]

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Matthew 5:17-18 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Premise #1 - If Christ's coming in verse 17 refers to his 1st advent only and He truly did fulfill all the law and the prophets, then "heaven and earth" have passed.

Premise #2 - If verse 17 requires the 2nd advent as well to fulfill all the law, and if this 2nd advent is still future to us, then two things result:

a) Heaven and earth have not passed
b) Every jot and tittle of the law is still in effect.

And if every jot and tittle of the law is still in effect, then several things must be happening:

a) Sin offerings are still be made
b) Temple high priests still exist
c) The Jewish temple must exist for both a) and b) to be carried out.

The genealogies, the Jewish temple, and its accompanying old covenant ceremonial economy were destroyed almost 2,000 years ago. No longer are there temple high priests and no longer are there sacrificial sin offerings. To believe that one is a Jew and following the law is to believe a lie because there is no temple. When was the last time a sin offering was made in the Jewish temple? The answer: just prior to its destruction in 70 AD.

So, one either must believe that the heavens and earth have passed in order to alleviate present-day adherence to the law, or one must believe that the law has been fulfilled and as a resultant consequence that the heavens and earth have also passed.

These are not pleasant choices for the futurist...

[RV]

Hi Mellontes,

I assume you're suggesting that ever jot and tittle from the law passed away in 70 A.D.

Am I correct?

Why weren't christians being instructed to keep the law prior to what happen in 70 A.D.?

Im also assuming you believe all the N.T. was written prior to 70 A.D.

[steve7150]

So, one either must believe that the heavens and earth have passed in order to alleviate present-day adherence to the law, or one must believe that the law has been fulfilled and as a resultant consequence that the heavens and earth have also passed.






Christ said he came to fulfill the law and on the cross he said "it is finished" therefore heaven and earth must be symbolic of something not literal.

[Mellontes]

Hi Mellontes,

I assume you're suggesting that ever jot and tittle from the law passed away in 70 A.D.

Am I correct?

Why weren't christians being instructed to keep the law prior to what happen in 70 A.D.?

Im also assuming you believe all the N.T. was written prior to 70 A.D.

Hi RV,

I think you are saying something that I was not saying...You want me to agree that every jot and tittle of the law PASSED AWAY in 70 AD. Sorry, but I cannot believe that. What I can believe however, is that every jot and tittle of the law would remain in effect till Jesus fulfilled all that He came to do. Whether that means the principles of the law passed is another matter. Besides, I thought the law of God was written upon our hearts.

Matthew 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Why would Christians be instructed to keep the law? Christ made the law obsolete (of no effect) at the cross. However, it is plainly evident that the law continued to be practiced by the unbelieving Jews (sacrifices, high priests, etc.) right up to the demise of Jerusalem and temple in 70 AD.

Your last statement would be quite correct. A. T. Robinson, a non-full-preterist agrees also, as does Kenneth Gentry, a partial-preterist. Have you read his work "Before Jerusalem Fell"?

Does that clarify things better?

[Mellontes]

So, one either must believe that the heavens and earth have passed in order to alleviate present-day adherence to the law, or one must believe that the law has been fulfilled and as a resultant consequence that the heavens and earth have also passed.

Christ said he came to fulfill the law and on the cross he said "it is finished" therefore heaven and earth must be symbolic of something not literal.

Hi Steve,

I don't think that heaven and earth have to be symbolic of anything. I think it meant the old covenant economy (temple) and the people associated with it. It very well may have meant the old covenant people. Have a look at the following: (adopted from another post in another forum)

It is when we insert our 21st century Western cultural views into texts that we come out with reinterpretations. Many simply refuse to understand the heaven and earth as anything else but the physical universe. Many refuse to understand the "elements" of 2 Peter 3 in the manner that Paul spoke of them but rather as the components that make up this physical universe. To many, the sea means water. How does the "sea" retain the water definition in the following:

Revelation 16:3 - And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Revelation 20:13 - And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

The "sea" contains men. But since many can only think water, they have no chance of the real understanding.

And yes, I do believe that the Bible does refer to the physical universe at times, but not at all times, when referring to heaven and earth. This is the aspect many ignore, and it also seems to me that many have no desire to look further - and if so, that would be to their shame.

Try this article (Part 1) by David Chilton - http://charlescoty.com/user/Looking%20F ... ton%20.pdf

Try this article (Part 2) by David Chilton - http://charlescoty.com/user/Looking%20F ... ton%20.pdf

Isaiah 51:16 - And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.

Read the verse without a physical universe eisegesis. The word "that" is indicative of purpose with direct reference to "thee." And guess what "thee" is. They are Zion. They are his people. People, people, people.

Let's do a comparison. Let's compare the language of Isaiah to that of Hebrews:

Isaiah 51:6-8 - Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.
8 For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, and my salvation from generation to generation.

Even though the heavens and earth are to be destroyed the generations (of man) continue. Note the specific language of "wax old like a garment." Now we go to the NT:

Hebrews 1:10-11 - And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

Is this all really just a "coincidence"? The reference to Isaiah 15:16 in reference to laying the foundation of the earth is unmistakable. Many probably disagree though because they won't let go of their present paradigm of physical universe. And I understand why. I truly do. But it must go, especially if one wishes to have any chance of understanding what the author of Hebrews said in the following verse:

Hebrews 8:13 - In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

This deals with the two covenants. See Hebrews 8:7-8:12 for the reference to what Jeremiah said about there coming a new covenant.

Hebrews 8:7-12 - For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Perhaps you are familiar with the above as quoted by Jeremiah:

Jeremiah 31:31-34 - Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Can the relationship between the old covenant and the new covenant be seen? Does one not see how the old heaven and earth was to perish and that it was "ready to vanish away"?

Does one still not understand what Peter meant by "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7). I suppose you think that Peter's first letter had no significance to what he told them a little later in his second letter?

Even the disciples' question from Matthew 24:3, Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7 all have the context of THE PRESENT TEMPLE in mind.

I earnestly plead for many to do a further study into these things. The destruction of the planet NEVER entered the minds of these people. It was the old covenant system and the unbelieving Jews so attached to this system that would be judged.

It was the unbelieving Jews who persecuted the church. The wrath of God was upon them. The temple was destroyed in the exact time frame that ALL THE APOSTLES AND JESUS forecast. As Peter said, it was the "world of the ungodly" that perished...2 Peter 2:5...not the planet.

Many still believe the "world" that perished was the planet.
But the planet did not perish, did it?
And many still believe it was the planet even though Peter said it was people who perished.

People, people, people, people...

Blessings!

And just for you to contemplate a little later...

(old) heaven and earth to be replaced by a new heaven and earth. These are covenants John. (Old) Jerusalem, new Jerusalem - see Galatians

Galatians 4:21-26 - Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

And put much more symbolically:

Revelation 3:12 - Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 21:2 - And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

The new Jerusalem represents the new covenant people in Jesus Christ. It is not shaped like a Star Trek Borg cube (which idea I believe is direct from Revelation, after all they do assimilate people into their Borg cube, don't they?)

[Douglas]

Mel,
When do you think the new covenant started and the old covenant ended? The same time or different times?

Christ said he came to fulfill the law and on the cross he said "it is finished"

I agree with Steve here, and believe the old covenant ended at the cross, the same time the new covenant began.

it is plainly evident that the law continued to be practiced by the unbelieving Jews (sacrifices, high priests, etc.) right up to the demise of Jerusalem and temple in 70 AD.

The unbelieving Jews that continued in the ways of the old covenant until AD70 did not receive any benefit from doing so. Just because they continued in that way until the temple was destroyed, does not mean that the old covenant was still in effect and that salvation was possible via the old covenant. Jesus made a new way, at the cross, making the old obsolete, of no value.

Doug

[Mellontes]

Mel,
When do you think the new covenant started and the old covenant ended? The same time or different times?

Christ said he came to fulfill the law and on the cross he said "it is finished"

I agree with Steve here, and believe the old covenant ended at the cross, the same time the new covenant began.

it is plainly evident that the law continued to be practiced by the unbelieving Jews (sacrifices, high priests, etc.) right up to the demise of Jerusalem and temple in 70 AD.

The unbelieving Jews that continued in the ways of the old covenant until AD70 did not receive any benefit from doing so. Just because they continued in that way until the temple was destroyed, does not mean that the old covenant was still in effect and that salvation was possible via the old covenant. Jesus made a new way, at the cross, making the old obsolete, of no value.

Doug

Hi Doug,

When Christ said "It is finished," please understand that His burial, His resurrection, and His ascension had not even started. Just what was it that was referred to as "it"? This is just one of those things we assume to be something, when in reality it is not...for further study, I am sure.

At the cross, the new covenant was inaugurated for sure. The old covenant was made obsolete (useless). But the point I make is that it was still being practiced by thousands and thousands of unbelieving Jews. It would continue to be physically in effect until its complete demise in 70 AD.

So Doug, are you saying that Jesus Christ fulfilled all? Then, if you are, of consequence, heaven and earth have passed as well...

And if you don't believe that Jesus Christ fulfilled all, then by consequence EVERY jot and tittle is still in effect. But that is impossible with the temple gone...

I guess the real issue is what is all the stuff that had to be all fulfilled. Was it just the Calvary event or did it include the 2nd coming prophecies from the OT as well.

If it meant just up to Calvary, it was still possible to practice every jot and tittle. If it meant up to the 2nd coming, then those jots and tittles become impossible to put into effect. Either way, one must acknowledge that heaven and earth HAVE PASSED. THEREFORE, IT IS NOT THE USUAL PHYSICAL UNIVERSE THAT IS ASSIGNED TO THE HEAVEN AND EARTH, NOW IS IT? And that my friends, was the whole point of my post. Heaven and earth, with respect to the Jewish understanding is associated with the old covenant, and I think more likely it is inclined more towards the people of that old covenant. This is why 2 Peter 3 takes on a whole new meaning. This is why the "elements" from 2nd Peter 3 get to retain the same meaning that Paul assigned to them in Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12.

Do you see the importance of Matthew 5:18 now?

[Douglas]

So Doug, are you saying that Jesus Christ fulfilled all? Then, if you are, of consequence, heaven and earth have passed as well...

YES. I believe Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and the prophets.

Mel, there is another way of understanding Mat 5:17-18 that you might ponder, and that is that Jesus did fulfill the law and the prophets (as I assume we both agree) at Calvary with His death and resurrection and that we keep the law by being IN Christ. So in essence the law has not passed away per say, but is still required, but is fulfilled by Christ, and subsequently by us by faith in Christ. And therefore the law has not yet passed away until the physical heaven and earth pass away. But since Calvary, how a person keeps the law has changed, and that is by having faith in Jesus Christ.

You know I just gotta put another point of view out there that we might want to considered.

Doug

[Homer]

Hi Melontes,

You wrote:

This is why the "elements" from 2nd Peter 3 get to retain the same meaning that Paul assigned to them in Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12.

Interesting observation! I had never before noticed that the same Greek word stoicheion (4747) was used in all the places you cite. Am I correct in assuming that you agree with my position regarding Christians and the Ten Commandments posted under the "Essays" category?

Doug wrote:

So in essence the law has not passed away per say, but is still required, but is fulfilled by Christ, and subsequently by us by faith in Christ. And therefore the law has not yet passed away until the physical heaven and earth pass away. But since Calvary, how a person keeps the law has changed, and that is by having faith in Jesus Christ.

Doug, are you saying that we are under the requirements of the law (of Moses, including the 10C) and that Jeus kept, or is keeping them for us in some way?

God bless, Homer

[Mellontes]

Hi Melontes,

You wrote:

This is why the "elements" from 2nd Peter 3 get to retain the same meaning that Paul assigned to them in Galatians 4:3, Galatians 4:9, Colossians 2:8, Colossians 2:20, and Hebrews 5:12.

Interesting observation! I had never before noticed that the same Greek word stoicheion (4747) was used in all the places you cite. Am I correct in assuming that you agree with my position regarding Christians and the Ten Commandments posted under the "Essays" category?

I have taken the liberty to copy and paste some of your stuff from that "Essays and Writings" section. I will go through some of what you said and bring it towards my full-preterism. Yes, I am a full-preterist. Here is your stuff:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

7. But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away (#2673, see below),

*Here Paul explicitly refers to the Ten Commandments as the "ministry of death", and hints that it is passing away.

8. how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9. For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.

*Though the Ten Commandments were glorious, the ministry of the Spirit is much more so.

10. For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11. For if what is passing away (#2673)was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

*As Paul was writing to the Corinthians, the Ten Commandments were passing away.

Note from Mellontes: I know the allusion is given to the ten commandments, but I think it goes much further than this. The "ministration of death" would have covered every aspect of the law. And if the death was physical, the only law would basically be "wrap and bury" . But it is not physical death that is in mind; it is spiritual death - separation from God - the SIN DEATH! And Paul is quite right the old covenant economy was beginning to pass away and would eventually be totally passed away (destroyed, annihilated) in 70 AD!

Hebrews 9:1-4 1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.
3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;

Note by Mellontes: Clearly it is more than just 10 commandments...

Hebrews 8:7-13(NAS)
7. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.
8. For finding fault with them, He says,
"BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;
9. NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
10. FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
11. AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,'
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
12. FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE."
13. When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Note from Mellontes: Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:31-34. The first (old) covenant was made obsolete (ineffective, of no value) at the cross. But like I said before, the old covenant system was still in practice right up until 70 AD. But it was getting ready to disappear. It was the end of Judaism! This was the them of the disciples' question in Mt 24:3, Mark 13:4 and Luke 21:7. It would be their generation that would see these things come to pass. Peter said "the end of all things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7). This was the parousia event. The UNBELIEVING Jews were persecuting the church. The church would find rest from those who troubled them (unbelieving Jews) AT THE PAROUSIA. 2 Thessalonians...

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9 - Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [See 1 Thess 2:14-16]
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So I agree with probably most of what you said, but the 10 commandments is too limited in scope I fear...Do you connect with what I am saying in regards to 70 AD? That is the big question