Mellontes,
I have been reading through your posts and I still have quite a few to still finish and reread. I can say from what I read thus far that you do make a good argument for your position. When I get done, I will try and answer your last questions, if I can. This may be a dumb question, but do you believe things just continue on earth, with no specific culmination (final stage for mankind)?
Grace, George
1 Th 4 - 5
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
You are asking another question without answering mine? That's okay. My question to you was quite involved and requires a lot of work to answer...George wrote:Mellontes,
I have been reading through your posts and I still have quite a few to still finish and reread. I can say from what I read thus far that you do make a good argument for your position. When I get done, I will try and answer your last questions, if I can. This may be a dumb question, but do you believe things just continue on earth, with no specific culmination (final stage for mankind)?
Grace, George
Here is the answer:
Ephesians 3:21 - Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Now, "world without end" is not talking about the planet Earth and it is literally translated something like from "ages to ages." I believe the Scriptures do not speak about a final culmination to mankind, at least not one that God has dictated. The only "end" mentioned in the Bible was in reference to the old covenant system of worship. Whether or not our entire existence will be on planet Earth is another matter. In the last 100 years technology has progressed so rapidly, I can't imagine what our capabilities would be in another 1,000 years. I believe that a system for transporting inanimate matter instantaneously from one place to another is not too distant in the future. But as for transporting human kind in this manner, the answer is definitely no - at least not without severe consequences - the soul and spirit are not things that can be duplicated by man's devices. So, probably within 3 or 4 more generations, we won't have need of FedEx to deliver parcels. Tell your children's children to sell their shares before the device is invented!
Why an end to mankind anyway? Jesus Christ has fulfilled everything in the Scriptures. We have gone on in our merry little lives ever since for nearly 2,000 years since His perfect fulfillment. Why culminate it now? We are just get started...I see lots of lively stones in the future, lots and lots and lots.
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes,Mellontes wrote:You are asking another question without answering mine? That's okay. My question to you was quite involved and requires a lot of work to answer...George wrote:Mellontes,
I have been reading through your posts and I still have quite a few to still finish and reread. I can say from what I read thus far that you do make a good argument for your position. When I get done, I will try and answer your last questions, if I can. This may be a dumb question, but do you believe things just continue on earth, with no specific culmination (final stage for mankind)?
Grace, George
Here is the answer:
Ephesians 3:21 - Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Now, "world without end" is not talking about the planet Earth and it is literally translated something like from "ages to ages." I believe the Scriptures do not speak about a final culmination to mankind, at least not one that God has dictated. The only "end" mentioned in the Bible was in reference to the old covenant system of worship. Whether or not our entire existence will be on planet Earth is another matter. In the last 100 years technology has progressed so rapidly, I can't imagine what our capabilities would be in another 1,000 years. I believe that a system for transporting inanimate matter instantaneously from one place to another is not too distant in the future. But as for transporting human kind in this manner, the answer is definitely no - at least not without severe consequences - the soul and spirit are not things that can be duplicated by man's devices. So, probably within 3 or 4 more generations, we won't have need of FedEx to deliver parcels. Tell your children's children to sell their shares before the device is invented!
Why an end to mankind anyway? Jesus Christ has fulfilled everything in the Scriptures. We have gone on in our merry little lives ever since for nearly 2,000 years since His perfect fulfillment. Why culminate it now? We are just get started...I see lots of lively stones in the future, lots and lots and lots.
Sometimes you must ask questions to see where the person (like yourself) is coming from. I know now much more then I did about your mindset and will answer your last set of questions, after I have thought about it for a bit.
George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Absolutely agreed. I was trying to represent humor when I said "you're asking another question without answering mine." You just must understand that no matter how my words may appear, I offer no disrespect or negative will to my Christian brothers...George wrote:Mellontes,
Sometimes you must ask questions to see where the person (like yourself) is coming from. I know now much more then I did about your mindset and will answer your last set of questions, after I have thought about it for a bit.
George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes,
Let us first start with a good definition of "parousia";
"Parousia is a Greek word used 24 times in the New Testament to mean "coming, arrival, personal presence". It is most often used to indicate the second coming and the arrival of the Son of Man though it can also indicate a visit by a Christian worker, apostle or even the "man of lawlessness" . In the Greek world of the New Testament it meant among other things a) A State visit or b) The presence or appearance of a deity during worship e.g. by divine fire. It has a range of meaning to that of the archaic English word "visitation". Here is a definition from Strong's concordance:
Definition
3952. parousia, par-oo-see'-ah; from the pres. part. of G3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; spec. of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by impl.) phys. aspect:--coming, presence.
There are six uses of the word to describe a visit by a person or their personal "presence" (1 Cor 16;17; 2Cor6:6, 2Cor 6;7; 2Cor 10:10; Phil 1:26; 2:12) this combination of "arrival" plus "personal presence" gives the flavour to the word even when it is being used theologically. The Parousia of Jesus Christ is both His arrival and the manifestation of His "presence" to all mankind." J Edmiston
I would start out by saying that "parousia" does not necessarily mean only Christ's first advent or second (no matter how one interprets this so called second "parousia"). In essence all Old Testament judgments of God coming in judgment would be a parousia as well as all apparent Theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament, at least in my estimation. With this said and after reading most of your posts, I can see how a Full Preterist can rightfully interpret much of the Apocalypse type verses as what happen in 70 A.D., a event that much of Christendom has not taken a very close look at, in that this was a very big deal both historically and theologically. I would also comment that your post on 2 Peter 3:6, was an "eye opener" for me for another possibility of how to interpret this meaning and you certainly may be correct.
There seems to me to be a theme that at the end of the ages that there will be a new heavens and new earth with such passages as 1Corinthians 15:20ff;
"And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all. (YLT)."
Note that in verses 24 through 26, the reader gets the impression that the way things now on earth are will come to an end.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:ff, we read;
"And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,
14for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,
15for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,
16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
18so, then, comfort ye one another in these words."
These verses also seem to speaking of a event above beyond Christ coming in judgment in 70 A.D.. Especially when you consider that He is bringing with Him those who have already passed to the next realm and is meeting those on earth in the air (verses 14 and 17).
Then I think about the passages in the Book of the Revelation of heaven and earth being in continuity with each other and there no longer is any death, sorrow and etc. This again seems to be in the future and a culmination of events for mankind and the spiritual creatures (angels) that did not happen in 70 A.D.
Enough for now,
Grace, George
Let us first start with a good definition of "parousia";
"Parousia is a Greek word used 24 times in the New Testament to mean "coming, arrival, personal presence". It is most often used to indicate the second coming and the arrival of the Son of Man though it can also indicate a visit by a Christian worker, apostle or even the "man of lawlessness" . In the Greek world of the New Testament it meant among other things a) A State visit or b) The presence or appearance of a deity during worship e.g. by divine fire. It has a range of meaning to that of the archaic English word "visitation". Here is a definition from Strong's concordance:
Definition
3952. parousia, par-oo-see'-ah; from the pres. part. of G3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; spec. of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by impl.) phys. aspect:--coming, presence.
There are six uses of the word to describe a visit by a person or their personal "presence" (1 Cor 16;17; 2Cor6:6, 2Cor 6;7; 2Cor 10:10; Phil 1:26; 2:12) this combination of "arrival" plus "personal presence" gives the flavour to the word even when it is being used theologically. The Parousia of Jesus Christ is both His arrival and the manifestation of His "presence" to all mankind." J Edmiston
I would start out by saying that "parousia" does not necessarily mean only Christ's first advent or second (no matter how one interprets this so called second "parousia"). In essence all Old Testament judgments of God coming in judgment would be a parousia as well as all apparent Theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament, at least in my estimation. With this said and after reading most of your posts, I can see how a Full Preterist can rightfully interpret much of the Apocalypse type verses as what happen in 70 A.D., a event that much of Christendom has not taken a very close look at, in that this was a very big deal both historically and theologically. I would also comment that your post on 2 Peter 3:6, was an "eye opener" for me for another possibility of how to interpret this meaning and you certainly may be correct.
There seems to me to be a theme that at the end of the ages that there will be a new heavens and new earth with such passages as 1Corinthians 15:20ff;
"And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all. (YLT)."
Note that in verses 24 through 26, the reader gets the impression that the way things now on earth are will come to an end.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:ff, we read;
"And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,
14for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,
15for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,
16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
18so, then, comfort ye one another in these words."
These verses also seem to speaking of a event above beyond Christ coming in judgment in 70 A.D.. Especially when you consider that He is bringing with Him those who have already passed to the next realm and is meeting those on earth in the air (verses 14 and 17).
Then I think about the passages in the Book of the Revelation of heaven and earth being in continuity with each other and there no longer is any death, sorrow and etc. This again seems to be in the future and a culmination of events for mankind and the spiritual creatures (angels) that did not happen in 70 A.D.
Enough for now,
Grace, George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Hi George,George wrote:Mellontes,
Let us first start with a good definition of "parousia";
"Parousia is a Greek word used 24 times in the New Testament to mean "coming, arrival, personal presence". It is most often used to indicate the second coming and the arrival of the Son of Man though it can also indicate a visit by a Christian worker, apostle or even the "man of lawlessness" . In the Greek world of the New Testament it meant among other things a) A State visit or b) The presence or appearance of a deity during worship e.g. by divine fire. It has a range of meaning to that of the archaic English word "visitation". Here is a definition from Strong's concordance:
Definition
3952. parousia, par-oo-see'-ah; from the pres. part. of G3918; a being near, i.e. advent (often, return; spec. of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by impl.) phys. aspect:--coming, presence.
There are six uses of the word to describe a visit by a person or their personal "presence" (1 Cor 16;17; 2Cor6:6, 2Cor 6;7; 2Cor 10:10; Phil 1:26; 2:12) this combination of "arrival" plus "personal presence" gives the flavour to the word even when it is being used theologically. The Parousia of Jesus Christ is both His arrival and the manifestation of His "presence" to all mankind." J Edmiston
I would start out by saying that "parousia" does not necessarily mean only Christ's first advent or second (no matter how one interprets this so called second "parousia"). In essence all Old Testament judgments of God coming in judgment would be a parousia as well as all apparent Theophanies of Christ in the Old Testament, at least in my estimation. With this said and after reading most of your posts, I can see how a Full Preterist can rightfully interpret much of the Apocalypse type verses as what happen in 70 A.D., a event that much of Christendom has not taken a very close look at, in that this was a very big deal both historically and theologically. I would also comment that your post on 2 Peter 3:6, was an "eye opener" for me for another possibility of how to interpret this meaning and you certainly may be correct.
There seems to me to be a theme that at the end of the ages that there will be a new heavens and new earth with such passages as 1Corinthians 15:20ff;
"And now, Christ hath risen out of the dead -- the first-fruits of those sleeping he became,
21for since through man [is] the death, also through man [is] a rising again of the dead,
22for even as in Adam all die, so also in the Christ all shall be made alive,
23and each in his proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ's, in his presence,
24then -- the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power --
25for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
26the last enemy is done away -- death;
27for all things He did put under his feet, and, when one may say that all things have been subjected, [it is] evident that He is excepted who did subject the all things to him,
28and when the all things may be subjected to him, then the Son also himself shall be subject to Him, who did subject to him the all things, that God may be the all in all. (YLT)."
Note that in verses 24 through 26, the reader gets the impression that the way things now on earth are will come to an end.
In 1 Thessalonians 4:ff, we read;
"And I do not wish you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, that ye may not sorrow, as also the rest who have not hope,
14for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,
15for this to you we say in the word of the Lord, that we who are living -- who do remain over to the presence of the Lord -- may not precede those asleep,
16because the Lord himself, in a shout, in the voice of a chief-messenger, and in the trump of God, shall come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ shall rise first,
17then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;
18so, then, comfort ye one another in these words."
These verses also seem to speaking of a event above beyond Christ coming in judgment in 70 A.D.. Especially when you consider that He is bringing with Him those who have already passed to the next realm and is meeting those on earth in the air (verses 14 and 17).
Then I think about the passages in the Book of the Revelation of heaven and earth being in continuity with each other and there no longer is any death, sorrow and etc. This again seems to be in the future and a culmination of events for mankind and the spiritual creatures (angels) that did not happen in 70 A.D.
Enough for now,
Grace, George
Thanks for your response. I am familiar with the various definitions of parousia and how it can be used in a non-2nd coming sense. It is very good that you recognize the parousia as "a presence." In Isaiah 13 (the judgment of Babylon), the Day of the Lord and God's presence was determined by His instruments of divine judgment - the Medes (verse 17).
If this response was your answer to my multipart question "Where exactly is your FINAL day of the Lord first mentioned in the entire Bible? I will also need to know its purpose. Was it to end all time and history? I will need the Scriptures that mention its purpose," I could not find the answers (nor the specific Scriptures) to those questions in your response. Maybe I am dense and too old to figure this stuff out...If this indeed was to answer those questions, I am going to require extra help. Can you color code my questions and then color code the appropriate answer with each respective question. I could sort of see the purpose of the parousia but not really...Please, I am not being sarcastic or anything like that. I really could not see your answers...
But just a few comments on what I did see...
"apparent theophanies" -- this is theological jargon. Why can it not be normal Jewish figures and metaphors? You NEED to quote specific verses. I won't argue or discuss generalizations because these all come from a group of specific Scriptures that are not mentioned. Each Scripture needs to be handled on its own merit - which I said before takes a long time.
"There seems to me to be a theme that at the end of the ages that there will be a new heavens and new earth" -- You are quite right. However, you do not explain what you meant by this. Are you talking about another physical, material creation or God's people under a new covenant? The new heaven and earth is first promised in Isaiah 65:17 and that chapter is dedicated to the conditions within that new heavens and earth.
"there no longer is any death, sorrow and etc." -- May I point you to this post of mine: http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 825#p40825 Most people define death as being physical death and sorrow is associated with being unhappy. God has a different perspective. You will find that these things are attached to the understanding of the old covenant economy - including hades/sheol which are no longer part of the new covenant economy among other things...
I await more clarification of those questions. Please try not to use generalizations and please also point that out to me should I use them too. Without the Scriptures in front of us as to our interpretation, discussion is futile, but not resistance.
(just an expression I use in regard to the Borg cube that many believe refers to the new Jerusalem)Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes,
I will try and reiterate that I believe there are many episodes of types of parousia’s in Scripture. I mentioned in the Old Testament there were Theophanies of God revealing Himself in Christ or Christophany, you ask me not to generalize so I will give you some references I gleaned from the web. Though I am sure you are aware of them as well as the passages of past judgments which also are parousia events.
Theophanies
Definition: A manifestation or appearance of God to man.
According to McClintock and Strong: "God reveals himself only in Christ (Matt, xi, 27). The theophany is therefore more accurately defined as a Christophany, or an epiphany of God in Christ; and all nature is a storehouse of signs of the divine presence, which uniformly point to Christ (Rom. i, 20; Col. i, 16)" (Volume X, p. 333).
I. God appears to Abraham
A. Genesis 17:1-4, 9-10, 15-16, 22
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
B. Genesis 18:1-3, 10
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 10 Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.
II. God wrestles with Jacob
Genesis 32:24-30
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
III. God appears to Moses in the burning bush
Exodus 3:2-6
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight-- why the bush does not burn up." 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am." 5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
IV. The Commander of the army of the LORD appears to Joshua
Joshua 5:13-15
Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" 14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?" 15 The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
V. The presence of the LORD with the three children in fire
Daniel 3:22-25
The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers "Weren't there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?" They replied, "Certainly, O king." 25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."
You have agreed about the judgment passages that also are the parousia’s` of God (Isaiah 13) so, I will not include them. Do you hold to a strict interpretation of “parousia” that differs from these mentioned (a super parousia in 70 A.D. that supersedes all others past, present and future)? In respect to the particular verse that actually says “the “Final Last Day, or the “Final Day of the Lord” etc, , it is the context of certain passages that seems to say there is more in the future that needs to happen. Full Preterist would disagree, but I still have reason thus far in my understanding to think that there is still a coming of the Lord that hasn’t happen. In 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, do we conclude that this is a spiritual or secret rapture of the dead and alive saints? Why are the saints with the Lord as He returns and what became of them? Did those who were alive at His coming actually rise into the clouds? Do we include Paul in this event, though he died prior to the Fall of Jerusalem, when he says “we”? Or does this spiritual resurrection cross “time and space”?
There seems to be an order of events that has not happen in 1Corinthians 15:20-50, special emphasis on verse 50. Also, in Revelations 20:1-5, one would be hard pressed to state that this is not still future, though verse 6 may indeed refer back to the early church in the 1st century. I do not believe the Revelation is chronological. I do not see Revelations 21 as fulfilled in fullness yet either.
You quote me and add;
"There seems to me to be a theme that at the end of the ages that there will be a new heavens and new earth" -- You are quite right. However, you do not explain what you meant by this. Are you talking about another physical, material creation or God's people under a new covenant? The new heaven and earth is first promised in Isaiah 65:17 and that chapter is dedicated to the conditions within that new heavens and earth.”
At the “end of the Jewish age”, began the “new covenant or new age” or the “age of the Church” which we are in now, but I see a culmination of all previous ages by the time we get to Revelation 22:1-5, where things are literally quite different then life on earth presently. Again, I could very well be wrong. I read your post that you wanted me to read and though you make a very strong case, I am not convinced.
I will be out of town for a while, no posts anytime soon.
Peace George
I will try and reiterate that I believe there are many episodes of types of parousia’s in Scripture. I mentioned in the Old Testament there were Theophanies of God revealing Himself in Christ or Christophany, you ask me not to generalize so I will give you some references I gleaned from the web. Though I am sure you are aware of them as well as the passages of past judgments which also are parousia events.
Theophanies
Definition: A manifestation or appearance of God to man.
According to McClintock and Strong: "God reveals himself only in Christ (Matt, xi, 27). The theophany is therefore more accurately defined as a Christophany, or an epiphany of God in Christ; and all nature is a storehouse of signs of the divine presence, which uniformly point to Christ (Rom. i, 20; Col. i, 16)" (Volume X, p. 333).
I. God appears to Abraham
A. Genesis 17:1-4, 9-10, 15-16, 22
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless. 2 I will confirm my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers." 3 Abram fell facedown, and God said to him, 4 "As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. 9 Then God said to Abraham, "As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her." 22 When he had finished speaking with Abraham, God went up from him.
B. Genesis 18:1-3, 10
The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 10 Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.
II. God wrestles with Jacob
Genesis 32:24-30
So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."
III. God appears to Moses in the burning bush
Exodus 3:2-6
There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, "I will go over and see this strange sight-- why the bush does not burn up." 4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!" And Moses said, "Here I am." 5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground." 6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.
IV. The Commander of the army of the LORD appears to Joshua
Joshua 5:13-15
Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?" 14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?" 15 The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.
V. The presence of the LORD with the three children in fire
Daniel 3:22-25
The king's command was so urgent and the furnace so hot that the flames of the fire killed the soldiers who took up Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, 23 and these three men, firmly tied, fell into the blazing furnace. 24 Then King Nebuchadnezzar leaped to his feet in amazement and asked his advisers "Weren't there three men that we tied up and threw into the fire?" They replied, "Certainly, O king." 25 He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."
You have agreed about the judgment passages that also are the parousia’s` of God (Isaiah 13) so, I will not include them. Do you hold to a strict interpretation of “parousia” that differs from these mentioned (a super parousia in 70 A.D. that supersedes all others past, present and future)? In respect to the particular verse that actually says “the “Final Last Day, or the “Final Day of the Lord” etc, , it is the context of certain passages that seems to say there is more in the future that needs to happen. Full Preterist would disagree, but I still have reason thus far in my understanding to think that there is still a coming of the Lord that hasn’t happen. In 1Thessalonians 4:13-18, do we conclude that this is a spiritual or secret rapture of the dead and alive saints? Why are the saints with the Lord as He returns and what became of them? Did those who were alive at His coming actually rise into the clouds? Do we include Paul in this event, though he died prior to the Fall of Jerusalem, when he says “we”? Or does this spiritual resurrection cross “time and space”?
There seems to be an order of events that has not happen in 1Corinthians 15:20-50, special emphasis on verse 50. Also, in Revelations 20:1-5, one would be hard pressed to state that this is not still future, though verse 6 may indeed refer back to the early church in the 1st century. I do not believe the Revelation is chronological. I do not see Revelations 21 as fulfilled in fullness yet either.
You quote me and add;
"There seems to me to be a theme that at the end of the ages that there will be a new heavens and new earth" -- You are quite right. However, you do not explain what you meant by this. Are you talking about another physical, material creation or God's people under a new covenant? The new heaven and earth is first promised in Isaiah 65:17 and that chapter is dedicated to the conditions within that new heavens and earth.”
At the “end of the Jewish age”, began the “new covenant or new age” or the “age of the Church” which we are in now, but I see a culmination of all previous ages by the time we get to Revelation 22:1-5, where things are literally quite different then life on earth presently. Again, I could very well be wrong. I read your post that you wanted me to read and though you make a very strong case, I am not convinced.
I will be out of town for a while, no posts anytime soon.
Peace George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
George,
I guess I should have been more specific. I was looking for the first Old Testament verse concerning the final parousia event that ends history and time. If that seems odd to you, then you should realize that ALL of the apostle Paul's doctrine came from the Old Testament; he adds no new revelation except that which came from the Old Testament (Acts 24:14, Acts 28:23). The second testament scriptures are the fulfillment of the first testament's Scriptures.
All the parousia events that happened in the OT are within the old covenant old heaven and earth age. All this would end with the final Parousia ending that old covenant age. It got wiped out, obliterated, destroyed, vanquished, vanished away. THE END represents the end of that age - Judaism and its long 1600 year history. There is no future parousia to end history.
Quickly, do you believe the new Jerusalem represents the church? Most partial preterists do, but I need affirmation by you.
Quickly, do you believe Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6 represent the same thing and would occur at the same time?
I guess I should have been more specific. I was looking for the first Old Testament verse concerning the final parousia event that ends history and time. If that seems odd to you, then you should realize that ALL of the apostle Paul's doctrine came from the Old Testament; he adds no new revelation except that which came from the Old Testament (Acts 24:14, Acts 28:23). The second testament scriptures are the fulfillment of the first testament's Scriptures.
All the parousia events that happened in the OT are within the old covenant old heaven and earth age. All this would end with the final Parousia ending that old covenant age. It got wiped out, obliterated, destroyed, vanquished, vanished away. THE END represents the end of that age - Judaism and its long 1600 year history. There is no future parousia to end history.
Quickly, do you believe the new Jerusalem represents the church? Most partial preterists do, but I need affirmation by you.
Quickly, do you believe Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6 represent the same thing and would occur at the same time?
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Mellontes,Mellontes wrote:George,
I guess I should have been more specific. I was looking for the first Old Testament verse concerning the final parousia event that ends history and time. If that seems odd to you, then you should realize that ALL of the apostle Paul's doctrine came from the Old Testament; he adds no new revelation except that which came from the Old Testament (Acts 24:14, Acts 28:23). The second testament scriptures are the fulfillment of the first testament's Scriptures.
All the parousia events that happened in the OT are within the old covenant old heaven and earth age. All this would end with the final Parousia ending that old covenant age. It got wiped out, obliterated, destroyed, vanquished, vanished away. THE END represents the end of that age - Judaism and its long 1600 year history. There is no future parousia to end history.
Quickly, do you believe the new Jerusalem represents the church? Most partial preterists do, but I need affirmation by you.
Quickly, do you believe Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6 represent the same thing and would occur at the same time?
Yes, I believe the New Jerusalem is the Church, but there is the completed New Jerusalem (Isaiah 65:25, Isaiah11:6) that is still the “not yet “for us. We are in the Isaiah 65:16-21 part, where death and sorrow are still a reality, though we have glimpses of “joy unspeakable” even now as the Body of Christ (the Church, New Jerusalem) there will be a completion of both the physical and spiritual on earth that is in continuity with heaven that I as well as most believers look forward to.
Now a couple of questions for you that I will look forward to getting answers to when I come back next week from visiting my mom, did Obadiah 1:15-20 and Isaiah 13:19-20, Jer.50:3,9,39-41 get fulfilled in 70A.D.?
Grace, George
Re: 1 Th 4 - 5
Let me address Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6 first. I am not sure where you get the idea that new Jerusalem must be "completed." Do you mean must come to an end? To me, the Scriptures talk about an ever increasing kingdom and the church as a "world without end" (from ages to ages) or something like that. The New Jerusalem has been completed (as in a spiritual structure with Christ as the cornerstone and Christians as the lively stones)...but back to the point of Isaiah 65:25 and Isaiah 11:6...George wrote: Mellontes,
Yes, I believe the New Jerusalem is the Church, but there is the completed New Jerusalem (Isaiah 65:25, Isaiah11:6) that is still the “not yet “for us. We are in the Isaiah 65:16-21 part, where death and sorrow are still a reality, though we have glimpses of “joy unspeakable” even now as the Body of Christ (the Church, New Jerusalem) there will be a completion of both the physical and spiritual on earth that is in continuity with heaven that I as well as most believers look forward to.
Now a couple of questions for you that I will look forward to getting answers to when I come back next week from visiting my mom, did Obadiah 1:15-20 and Isaiah 13:19-20, Jer.50:3,9,39-41 get fulfilled in 70A.D.?
Grace, George
Isaiah 11:6-10 - The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
The "in that day" refers to when the characteristics of verses 6-10 occur.
Paul, in Romans 14 deals with the friction between Christian Jews and Christian Gentiles and pretty much ends his discourse with the following stressing how it was God's plan all along to have the Gentiles come into Christ's fold, hence Jew AND Gentile in one body. I am sure you are very much aware of this fact.
Romans 15:8-12 - Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
9 And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.
10 And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.
11 And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.
Paul is quoting Isaiah 11:10 to prove his point that this is already happening in his day (1st century). And if Isaiah 65:25 is equivalent to Isaiah 11:6 then by necessity it has been fulfilled and is continuing to be fulfilled...There is no end to the new covenant in Christ, but the "types and shadows" old covenant which pointed to Jesus Christ, absolutely!
I will attempt to study up on those other OT passages you gave me. It will probably take awhile. It is not like I spend every morning in Obadiah!
This is what I love about doing this. We are challenged to go deeper and learn more. We might not agree in the final outcome, but we usually learn more and are always reminded of how truly wonderful our God is!Blessings!