Rom. 11:25-28

[Guest]

Steve7150,

You make some good points and I thank you for sending me running to my concordance on this point.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems to me to be out of God's character to "blind" two millinia of Jewish people to the truth (and thereby damning them to hell by no choice of their own) so that He can deal exclusively with Gentiles. This, I think would be worse than any earthly holocaust the Jews have suffered. But If we're to believe that God is punishing more than 50 generations of Jewish people because their ancestors rejected the Messiah, that would seem to me to contradict what Peter said, that God is:

2 Peter 3:9
not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
NKJV

I don't lay claim to any right to free will, God has every right to condemn me and only He knows how much long-suffering He has gone through with me. But when I read the scriptures, I get a strong sense that out of love for all, He has sovereignly given every person more than enough chances to choose a relationship with Him. Paul seems to agree that this is the choice of every individual person.

Rom 10:9-11
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV

Believing in your own heart is not an soveriegn act of God, but an act of yours. You are simply judging God to be trustworthy enough to make Him your Lord. And who is "you" in this verse? Well, Paul clarifies that a little later:

Rom 10:13
"whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
NKJV

"Whoever calls" I would take to mean whoever chooses to call. Including the so-called "blinded" Jews. I insist this is true because Paul preceded this statement with that very sentiment:

Rom 10:12
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
NKJV


The "blindness in part" cannot mean a universal temporary blindness of Jews until the Gentiles are done playing church, I think it has to mean that some Jews are blind and some are not. But ethnic Jews are not disqualified from entering the Kingdom is the point I think Paul is trying to get across here. Together with the Gentiles, the believing Jews will be saved into the "Israel of God" which is the body of Christ, the church (Gal 6). The Fullness will be complete when all the "whosoever wills" have come into the body.

Anyway, that's how I currently understand it, and it makes a lot more sense to me than any of the alternatives I heard so far. But like I said before, I'm no scholar, just a lover of Jesus and His truth.

Great chattin' with you on this. Iron sharpens Iron.

[Guest]

Chris, I think i'm open minded since i changed from dispensationalism to ammelianism after listening to Steve and Doug Batchlor. But re jews hardening themselves i don't see it.
Romans 11.7 " What then? What Israel is seeking,it has not obtained ,but those who WERE CHOSEN obtained it, and the rest WERE HARDENED."
11.8 "just as it is written,God GAVE THEM a spirit of stupor."
11.10 "Let their eyes be darkened TO SEE NOT and bend their backs forever."
God did'nt do this because they were jews but because he has a sovreign plan IMO. God does things through the least likely people or nations and IMO he will do something through the biggest unbelievers in the end IMO.
Just my thoughts , i can't prove it or back it up scriptually except to say "the last will be the first and the first shall be the last."
I don't accept the translation of aionas as "forever" but rather i think it means till the end of the age. Steve7150

You are making a good point but I think you are reading a bit much into it. In other words, you seem to be taking a reformed view of the passage. That complicates things a bit for this topic since I'm not reformed, so I understand it differently.

So without getting into a Calvinist/Arminian debate I would point to these verses to show that the "blinded" jews were blinded because they were not part of the remant of God in the first place. They demonstrated this by thier rejection of the Messiah.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.

Jesus is that stumbling stone.

1 Corinthians 1:23
...but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles

And Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul here says the Jews have not been rejected until some future times of the Gentiles is complete. Instead Paul says no, the Jews are not rejected. This would have been a great place for Paul to say something like "Sure, the Jews are rejected now, but wait, in the future they won't be". Instead He points to Himself as proof!

Romans 11 goes on to give the example of how a "remant" was chosen, just as in the past. And then OT examples are quoted. One of them says:
"And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

Interesting that it gives the reason why these seven thousand were kept. They were not idolators! They had not given up on the true God and gone to worship false gods.

So I would say the same thing happend to the Jews at that time. Those who turned or were turned from God also rejected the Messiah. God hardened/blinded them because they were not part of the remnant. They were not faithful Jews in the first place.

[Guest]

Hmm.

The one major beef that I have against the interpretation that because many Jews rejected Christ, they're not part of the righteous remnant, is that it doesn't take into account that God would (and still does) desire otherwise. Even if it's not the case deliberately, this interpretation still comes across like a veiled form of anti-Semitism.

That's why I took pains to point out that even though God's will might be frustrated in the short term, it won't be frustrated in the long term. God will save "all Israel" - partly because whoever rejects that salvation at the very end will simply be destroyed, but also because the Jews as a whole will be ready to receive the message at that time, whereas they weren't ready when Christ first came.

Did you guys know that there's a Jewish tradition that if Israel wasn't ready for the Messiah, then he would come humbly, riding a donkey? On the other hand, if they were ready, then the Messiah would come in glory, riding a white horse? I mean, stop and think about that in terms of Jesus' first and second coming. Interesting, isn't it?

Damon

[Guest]

Damon,

I agree with Sean's assessment and I think I also know what you are saying. I don't believe Sean meant that Jews in general are not part of the righteous remnant, but only those who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah, both then and now. But your explanation leaves me with a few questions:

1. Isn't more anti-Semitic to suggest that Jews are specifically blinded until all the Gentiles come in? I mean, that would exclude 2000 years worth of Jews from salvation wouldn't it?

2. And what about the Jews who are saved now? Certainly we can't say the the fullness of the Gentiles has already happened since Gentiles are still getting saved daily.

3. How are we to define Israel? It is my understanding that the majority of Jews today aren't really descended from Abraham at all, but from the Europeans.

4. What about those who are descended from Abe and don't know it?

It just doesn't add up in my mind to say that "all Israel will be saved" means every man, woman, and child who is a Jew will eventually accept Christ before He comes.

[Guest]

FYI, that last post was from me (Chris). I wasn't logged in. Sorry.

[Guest]

Hmm.

The one major beef that I have against the interpretation that because many Jews rejected Christ, they're not part of the righteous remnant, is that it doesn't take into account that God would (and still does) desire otherwise. Even if it's not the case deliberately, this interpretation still comes across like a veiled form of anti-Semitism.

God does desire all to come to repentance but if they don't then they are lost. This is what the Bible states. Jesus is the way, no one comes to the Father except throught Him. So I don't understand how a Jew can reject Christ and still be saved just because their Jewish. This seems racist to me. That's certainly not what Jesus said. An Paul went through great pains to prove otherwise. (Romans 2:28-29)

That's why I took pains to point out that even though God's will might be frustrated in the short term, it won't be frustrated in the long term. God will save "all Israel" - partly because whoever rejects that salvation at the very end will simply be destroyed, but also because the Jews as a whole will be ready to receive the message at that time, whereas they weren't ready when Christ first came.
Damon

Well in this case I don't understand your terms. Who is "all Israel"? If you mean all Jews alive at the second coming then what about "all Israel" that have gone to hell because they were blinded for (as some peoples eschatology teaches) the past 2,000 years. To me that's a strong charge to lay against God and of little comfort as more Jews have lived and died in the past 2,000 years than would be in the last Jewish "all Israel" being saved.

So Who is "all Israel"? Is it the Jews who remain at the second coming? All Jews in history? All Jews since rejecting Christ who were hardened? etc.

Did you guys know that there's a Jewish tradition that if Israel wasn't ready for the Messiah, then he would come humbly, riding a donkey? On the other hand, if they were ready, then the Messiah would come in glory, riding a white horse? I mean, stop and think about that in terms of Jesus' first and second coming. Interesting, isn't it?

Damon

The Jews had a lot of traditions about the Messiah that were not correct, why would I accept this one?

[Guest]

Damon,

I agree with Sean's assessment and I think I also know what you are saying. I don't believe Sean meant that Jews in general are not part of the righteous remnant, but only those who don't accept Jesus as the Messiah, both then and now.

Right. I know what Sean meant, and I wasn't accusing him (or anyone else) of anything. What I meant was that it's very easy to claim that this is true while still having a veiled issue with anti-Semitism. In other words, the Jews who didn't (and don't) accept Jesus aren't part of the righteous remnant - so that means we can just discount them. We aren't obligated to love them anyway (and without coming across as superior or condescending because we DO profess faith in Jesus!), whether they've accepted the Messiah or not.

It grieves me to know that there are some people who think this way, and that's why I said what I said.

But your explanation leaves me with a few questions:

1. Isn't more anti-Semitic to suggest that Jews are specifically blinded until all the Gentiles come in? I mean, that would exclude 2000 years worth of Jews from salvation wouldn't it?

It's not a matter of exclusion, it's a matter of free choice on the part of the Jews as far as I'm concerned. Look at it this way. People are only responsible for acting on what they know and understand to be true. If some of the Jews are temporarily blinded (but only because they choose to be) so that they can't accept Jesus as the Messiah, then that actually implies mercy on God's part. They would only be damned if they knew Jesus to be the Messiah and rejected Him anyway. As things stand, I don't believe God holds people who are blinded accountable for what they can't see (John 9:39-41; Rom. 5:12-13; Mat. 13:9-16).

2. And what about the Jews who are saved now? Certainly we can't say the the fullness of the Gentiles has already happened since Gentiles are still getting saved daily.

Right. That's why it's blindness in part.

3. How are we to define Israel? It is my understanding that the majority of Jews today aren't really descended from Abraham at all, but from the Europeans.

The Jews today are considered to be either ethnic Israel or grafted in to ethnic Israel, so it doesn't make any difference either way.

4. What about those who are descended from Abe and don't know it?

Well, who is supposed to tell them and lead them back to God? Read Isaiah 49, especially verses 5-6 and 8-26. Someone is, apparently!

It just doesn't add up in my mind to say that "all Israel will be saved" means every man, woman, and child who is a Jew will eventually accept Christ before He comes.

Well, everyone who is part of the nation of Israel, at the time of Christ's return, will either have already accepted Him or will have already been destroyed in the Great Tribulation. (Many of those who do accept Christ will also die, to be resurrected later, but that's another story.)

By the way, if people aren't responsible for what they don't understand, then God must have a way of ministering to those who've never understood and believed the Gospel message. And that's yet another, very interesting topic.

Damon

[Guest]

Hi Sean. I hope I answered most of your questions in my reply to Chris, but if you still want me to clarify anything, just let me know.

The Jews had a lot of traditions about the Messiah that were not correct, why would I accept this one?

Good question! The Jews believed a lot of things that were false, but also a lot of things that were true. How would you discern between the two? What method has God given us for discernment?

Damon

[Guest]

Right. I know what Sean meant, and I wasn't accusing him (or anyone else) of anything. What I meant was that it's very easy to claim that this is true while still having a veiled issue with anti-Semitism. In other words, the Jews who didn't (and don't) accept Jesus aren't part of the righteous remnant - so that means we can just discount them. We aren't obligated to love them anyway (and without coming across as superior or condescending because we DO profess faith in Jesus!), whether they've accepted the Messiah or not.

It grieves me to know that there are some people who think this way, and that's why I said what I said.

Damon

Fortunately for us we are suppose to love all people, lost or otherwise, and since we don't know who God has chosen, it wouldnt be possible to discount others of any race.

[Guest]

Damon, You're right about that verse re the Messiah riding in on a donkey if the jewish people were not righteous. Do you happen to know where that verse is?