Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

Paidion, You're right that the typical universalist-unitarian church is so liberal that it's much more humanist than christian. But in this life very few will qualify for heaven. Indeed the narrow path will be very narrow. But at the lake of fire first death is thrown into the lake. Paul said death is the last enemy to be destroyed and afterwards unbelievers are thrown in when death no longer exists. So if death no longer exists than annihalation seems to not be viable. At this point we don't know what happens to unbelievers because nothing is said until Rev 22.17 when "the Spirit and the Bride" invite anyone who thirsts to drink the water of life. However since Jesus said to Judas "it would have been better for you if you were never born" i think i'll try my darndest to avoid this lake.
According to Steve the word "all" can mean all those left after annihalation but as i pointed out unbelievers are thrown into the lake after the death is destroyed IMO. Of course you could say that we really don't know exactly when death is destroyed but IMO the natural reading of the text is that it's destroyed first in the LOF.

[Guest]

Guys, this has been a fun discussion. One thing I'd like to mention is that Jesus told the woman in Matthew 15:24 that he came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Likewise, when Jesus sent out the apostles he told them to go only to the house of Israel. If Jesus' ministry was directed at unbelieving Jews, then the Genenna reference makes a lot more sense. In fact, some would argue that he was talking about 70AD. To escape Gehenna meant to escape the destruction by the Romans. One of the church fathers (Steve referenced this once) noted that not one Christian was left in Jerusalem at that time. They heeded his advice and lived.

If this was true and Jesus was, more or less, being literal it would not surprise me that Paul (being the apostle to the gentiles) would not use the term Gehenna or any other for hell. Anyone else find this curious? It seems very strange that Paul never mentioned this, as far as we know, to his gentile followers even though Jesus spoke frequently of Gehenna. I don't mean to beat a dead horse but this connection didn't occur to me until recently.

[Guest]

jcdv, Very astute observation , i have to meditate on this and check out Paul's and the other apostles writings.

[Guest]

Steve7150,

In your post of 7/20 you referred to Rev. 22:17, "the verse no one responds to" and commented "which is right at the end of scripture after unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire and after death and hades have been destroyed." The problem with your exegesis of this passage is that the book of Revelation is not in chronological order. Note for example the reign of Christ in chapter 11 and his birth described in chapter 12!

One way of looking at this passage is the following:
In Rev 21:9-22:5 John is carried away and shown a vision of Heaven. Then in 22:6 the angel verifies the vision, and in 22:8-11 John verifies revelation. In Rev. 22:12-16 Jesus verifies revelation. Then in 22:17 we have an invitation, much as preachers give an invitation at the end of a sermon.

I fail to find any support for your view in this passage.

In Christ, Homer

[Guest]

Homer, My NASB bible calles Rev 22.10-21 "The Final Message" and it's after the New Jerusalem has come down from heaven which is the consumation of of this age. So this is certainly the final events of Revelation and this part is in chronological order. In Chap 20 we have the great white throne judgement and the lake of fire. Then in Rev 21 we have the New Heaven and Earth and then the New Jerusalem. It sounds like the final events to me. BTW have you noticed the judgement is a "white throne judgement" not a "black throne judgement" ? White meaning judging in righteousness and all the attributes of God which are love,mercy,justice and holiness. However if you see it differently that ok with me ,your entitled to your opinion.

[mgarrett]

While considering Christian-Universalism further, I have come upon some interesting scriptures in Revelation.

Rev 5:13-14
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:
"To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" 14The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

Here we have a description of all creation praising God and Jesus. It is parallel to Paul's words in Phil 2:9-11 and Rom 14:11.

Phil 2:9-11
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Rom 14:11
It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "

The Universalist would say that all of creation will praise God when all have found salvation through Christ. In order for this to happen there must be opportunity after death for those who are not Christians when they die. This is because salvation must be through Christ (Acts 4:12).

How someone can become a Christian after death is indeed a mystery. I do think, however, that the answer can be found in the final Judgment of God and revealing of his Wrath. The Bible is filled with warnings to the ungodly and disobedient that each one will answer to God and be judged according to their works. Even "every idle word" will be remembered on that Day (Matt 12:36).

So what is the substance of this judgment? Does it have a purpose? Paul says this event will be filled with "tribulation and anguish" (Rom 2:9 KJV). Jesus says there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" (Matt 8:12).

Would God keep people artificially alive in this state forever? What would be the purpose of that? If this were so, would it not be better to let death have its final say? Would a God who tells us to love our enemies expect less from himself? I think not!

I believe God's purpose in his Wrath is to conquer the hard hearted and bring them to a realization of Christ as their Savior. How this is done is a mystery but we have great scriptural evidence of this in Rev 7. Let's first look at the 144,000.

Rev 7:1-8
1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

These represent the "Israel of God" (Gal 6:16), not Israel of the flesh. Paul explains this in Rom 9.

Rom 9:6-8
6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

The 144,000 is the Church who has been sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30). These are people who were Christians when they died. While I don't believe that the number 144,000 is meant to represent an exact number, I do believe its purpose to show that those who are Christians represent a small number when compared to all of humanity ("few there be that find it" Matt 7:14).

In contrast, Rev 7:9-12 describes a different group of people - a multitude which no man can number who are praising God.

Rev 7:9-12
9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." 11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: "Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!"

If the 144,000 are the Church then who are these people? This is exactly what was asked in the next verse.

Rev 7:13-14a
13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?" 14 I answered, "Sir, you know."

And here is the answer...

Rev 7:14b-17
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. 17 For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

So here is the ultimate question. What is the "great tribulation" out of which these came? It is the Day of Judgment and Wrath of God. This is what the Bible continually warns about for the ungodly, unbelieving and disobedient. What else could it be? Didn't Paul describe it as tribulation and anguish? Didn't Jesus say there would be weeping and gnashing of teeth? Notice the promises given to these people in the last two verses....no more hunger, thirst, heat, or tears. In other words, no more tribulation and anguish, no more weeping and gnashing of teeth. Rather, they will be led by by their Shepard to rivers of living waters.

Rev 7 parallels Rev 5 very well, and both chapters end with all of humanity praising God and the Lamb. In conclusion, I find this very compelling evidence of Universalism supported in Scripture - that Christ is indeed the Savior of the world.

Rom 5:18
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.

Todd

[Guest]

Father of five, Could'nt the great tribulation simply be the entire period of time between the first and second advent. Believers enter the kingdom of God through much tribulation , Paul said. I believe in conditional immortality which could mean the great multitude are all the believers who died and were taken to heaven. If you are a ammilenialist then Rev 20.4-5 seems to teach this "And they (believers) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." There you have it IMO a clear statement on conditional immortality. Also re how one could become a christian after death, Paul called himself the chief of sinners yet it took a few seconds for him to be converted when he saw thr risen Christ. Why can't that happen after death? The counter verse to this "once to die and then the judgement" can be understood to mean a spritual death which is very often the type of death referred to in scripture. Like when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." Also the greek word for judgement "krises" simply does not mean conviction. The last point is that when unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire , nothing is said about their fate until Rev 22.17 "and the Spirit and the Bride say come and let him who thirsts come . Whoever desires let him take the water of life freely." This sounds like universalism is possible and that God really is long suffering and patient wanting everyone to come to repentence.

[mgarrett]

Father of five, Could'nt the great tribulation simply be the entire period of time between the first and second advent. Believers enter the kingdom of God through much tribulation , Paul said. I believe in conditional immortality which could mean the great multitude are all the believers who died and were taken to heaven. If you are a ammilenialist then Rev 20.4-5 seems to teach this "And they (believers) lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." There you have it IMO a clear statement on conditional immortality.

Steve7150, I believe that "the rest of the dead" in Rev 20 is referring to non-christians who died in their sins. The first resurrection is the the resurrection of Christ - we "have part" in his resurrection through our conversion as stated in Col 3:1a "If you have been risen with Christ...." Therefore the "rest of the dead" are rising to condemnation and God's wrath. These could be "the great multitude" in Rev 7 but Rev 20 is in anticipation of the judgment whereas Rev 7 describes them after the completion of the judgment and their restoration.

Also re how one could become a christian after death, Paul called himself the chief of sinners yet it took a few seconds for him to be converted when he saw thr risen Christ. Why can't that happen after death? The counter verse to this "once to die and then the judgement" can be understood to mean a spritual death which is very often the type of death referred to in scripture. Like when Jesus said "let the dead bury the dead." Also the greek word for judgement "krises" simply does not mean conviction.

I agree.

The last point is that when unbelievers are thrown into the lake of fire , nothing is said about their fate until Rev 22.17 "and the Spirit and the Bride say come and let him who thirsts come . Whoever desires let him take the water of life freely." This sounds like universalism is possible and that God really is long suffering and patient wanting everyone to come to repentence.

I agree with this also. Here we have a picture of the Holy City. Inside the city is the dwelling place of God, the Lamb and the saints. Outside the city are the unclean who are suffering God's wrath in the lake of fire. The city has twelve gates. Notice that Rev 21:25-26 says....

25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

The gates are never shut! and as you have pointed out the invitation is open to whoever will to come and take of the water of life. Nothing vile or unclean will ever be brought into the city but only those who have "washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." I believe that this will happen after death also when all of the dead are risen and suffer the "terror of the Lord" and all of their deeds will be remembered. They will suffer intense shame and remorse at the realization of their deeds. Notice what Jude said.....

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Here we have a little explaination of the purpose of God's wrath is to "convince all that are ungodly of all their ungodly deeds." God wants everyone to understand the seriousness of their sin and seeks repentance even after death.

Todd

[mgarrett]

To further clarify my thinking on this subject consider the following....

God calls all men to repentance, yet, in this life most do not - they die in their sins. They perish. Notice what Paul says...

Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If the dead are freed from sin (they sin no longer) then why would a loving and merciful God resurrect them only to send them to suffer eternity in endless torment? Would it not be more merciful to let them continue in death for eternity? God's mercy is boundless.

2 Cor 1:3
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

Rather, I believe it is BECAUSE of his mercy and love that he resurrects everyone. He has a remedy for sin and desires his whole creation to be restored. His remedy is Jesus.

1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

2 Cor 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

But God requires repentance from sin. The vast majority of mankind dies without having repented. So they rise in the resurrection unto condemnation. As it is written,

John 5:28-29
28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29 and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.

Those who rise to be condemned will suffer that wrath of God's judgment. But this is a remedial judgment. God, in his wisdom, has this as a final answer to bring the rest of mankind unto repentence. He will bring to rememberance every deed and thought and word. Those who have done evil will suffer the shame and anguish of their works. They will understand the consequences of what they have done and how it has harmed others. It will be a time (or age) of "great tribulation." They will finally be brought to repentance and realize that Christ has paid the price for their sins. They will emerge from this judgment singing praises to God and to the Lamb and will be brought into the Holy City (having now been made clean through the blood of Jesus). And God will wipe away all their tears, and their sins and iniquities will be remembered no more.

And in this we can truly grasp the fullness of the grace of God - that in Jesus the whole of his creation will be restored to God.

Todd

[Guest]

I appreciate the above discussion. One question I would have though is, how does one repent after death? If I understand repentance correctly, it's not simply a sentiment of the heart or change of the mind, but a reversal of the very actions and behaviors a person does as a result. We see an example of this in Zacheus (sorry I don't have my bible with me to give a reference right now) . Jesus declared "salvation has come to this house" only after Zacheus announced his intention to pay back everyone he has wronged. So how does the dead person have an opportunity to change his/her actions?