The Oxford Pocket Classical Greek dictionary lists 'meeting' as a definition of that word. And the word in Greek corresponding to the Latin rapturo is harpazo, which means 'to snatch away'. Interesting.steve wrote:The Greek is relevant, because the word "meet" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the same used in Matthew 25:1 and Acts 28:15 (and, I believe, only in those places in the New Testament). In Matthew 25 and Acts 28 there is no question about it meaning "going out to meet an important person in order to accompany him on the last leg of his journey." It apparently means something like this in 1 Thessalonians as well.well Greek knowledge wouldn't help much - it comes from the Latin rapturo, to snatch away.
NT Wright on the "Rapture"
Re: NT Wright on the "Rapture"
Re: NT Wright on the "Rapture"
2 Timothy 1:10 - But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
Do you see how death HAS BEEN ABOLISHED (Past tense)? Do you see the contrast between LIFE and IMMORTALITY with that of DEATH? There are many verses that associate LIFE with the Gospel. This LIFE is to come to already living, breathing, human
I see life as knowing God but i see immortality in the traditional sense therefore you can have life without immortality. Paul said we would be raised in incorruptable bodies contrasted against our corruptable bodies and he again contrasts natural bodies which we now have with supernatural (spiritual) resurrected bodies.
Jesus brought life and immortality "to light" which i take to mean the knowledge of life and immortality. With regards to abolishing death , spiritual death is abolished if we know God and physical death is abolished in the age to come. You could look at this two ways which is that believers do not die physically because we are simply sleeping not dead or it could be that Paul is using a technique of speaking which Jesus sometimes used which is speaking of things that are not yet as though they are. Another words the promise of immortality is sealed by Christ and brought to light and awaiting the ones deemed worthy through Christ.
Do you see how death HAS BEEN ABOLISHED (Past tense)? Do you see the contrast between LIFE and IMMORTALITY with that of DEATH? There are many verses that associate LIFE with the Gospel. This LIFE is to come to already living, breathing, human
I see life as knowing God but i see immortality in the traditional sense therefore you can have life without immortality. Paul said we would be raised in incorruptable bodies contrasted against our corruptable bodies and he again contrasts natural bodies which we now have with supernatural (spiritual) resurrected bodies.
Jesus brought life and immortality "to light" which i take to mean the knowledge of life and immortality. With regards to abolishing death , spiritual death is abolished if we know God and physical death is abolished in the age to come. You could look at this two ways which is that believers do not die physically because we are simply sleeping not dead or it could be that Paul is using a technique of speaking which Jesus sometimes used which is speaking of things that are not yet as though they are. Another words the promise of immortality is sealed by Christ and brought to light and awaiting the ones deemed worthy through Christ.
Re: NT Wright on the "Rapture"
Matthew 12:32 - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in the world [age] [about] to come.
If the "age about to come" truly does represent eternity after physical death, then how can it be possible for an individual to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in THAT realm?
Where did the word "about" come from? I don't see where it says the blaspheming is in the age to come only that forgiveness will not be possible in this age or the age to come.
I did'nt include all of Paul's statements contrasting the two ages, they are very strong contrasts making the distinctions clear and unmistakable.
If the "age about to come" truly does represent eternity after physical death, then how can it be possible for an individual to blaspheme the Holy Spirit in THAT realm?
Where did the word "about" come from? I don't see where it says the blaspheming is in the age to come only that forgiveness will not be possible in this age or the age to come.
I did'nt include all of Paul's statements contrasting the two ages, they are very strong contrasts making the distinctions clear and unmistakable.
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darinhouston
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Re: NT Wright on the "Rapture"
Off-topic posts relating whether there is a future rapture at all have been split into a new thread called [OT] NT Wright on the "Rapture."
I'd love a continued dialogue on what the nature of the rapture might be, but this is not a topic about full preterism. That dialogue, interesting though it may be, should continue in the new thread.
I'd love a continued dialogue on what the nature of the rapture might be, but this is not a topic about full preterism. That dialogue, interesting though it may be, should continue in the new thread.
Re: NT Wright on the "Rapture"
I would agree with Wright that there is no essential or required upward motion of living believers at any point in time. The upward motions described in scripture (e.g. "rise from the dead," and "caught up in the air") are basically metaphorical.
Part of the problem (regarding the topic of rapture) I find in scripture is that maybe on one passage talks about being caught up in the air, namely 1Thes 4:17. How then are we to make such a dramatic scenario of a rapture based on one verse? And what is the relevance of the rapture? (So I've never quite caught on to the doctrine of a rapture.)
Secondly, in Matt 13 (if related to 1Thes 4), speaks of the righteous be left in tact on earth while the wicked are removed. If we look at Rom 4:13, there's a promise that may be interpreted to say that we believers inherit the world with Abraham. And on past judgments on earth like with the flood and like Sodom and Gomorrah, the wicked are the ones removed. The general concept thenis that only the wicked are removed; this removal occurs during times of judgments. Such preservation of the righteouness to the earth also is reflected in John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. (17) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
(Edited -- to complete a sentence that wasn't finished.)
Let's look at the sense of metaphor used for some related concepts.
The idea of Heaven is metaphorically upward in location. Now if people in Israel look upward to the North Star, do those in Fiji look downward to find the heavens? Certainly not. The metaphor is that God's ways are high above ours, in another sense He is out of reach unless He reaches to us. The analogy is furthered by the ability to see how small we are compared to the expanse of the heavens.
Another metaphorical sense occurs in the idea of "rising from the dead." In this analogy, we have the sense that a dead person is both lying down, from which he can rise, and also that he is buried under the ground so that entry back into the living realm requires rising up at least a couple meters. We need not suppose that upon death that we should head upward in some direction (i.e. toward the North Star or away from it) in order to enjoy resurrection. And if we be in Paradise, upon death, to be raised again to the earth, should we suppose that we have risen (in some specific direction) from the dead.
Look at Dan 7:13
I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him (ASV).
This basically represents an action in God's realm. Jesus doesn't descend to earth. Rather, He moves across [God's] heaven. So in Matt 24, the mention of Christ's "coming in the clouds" refers to the same event. And as this is described in the heavens, then allegorically the living believers must ascend, like those metaphorically "risen from the dead," in order to meet Him in the clouds." Note though that I'm not denying the truth that those who died as believers subsequently have life and consciousness.
Hence, Wright may have a point, maybe a few good points, regarding the expectancy for a rapture.
Part of the problem (regarding the topic of rapture) I find in scripture is that maybe on one passage talks about being caught up in the air, namely 1Thes 4:17. How then are we to make such a dramatic scenario of a rapture based on one verse? And what is the relevance of the rapture? (So I've never quite caught on to the doctrine of a rapture.)
Secondly, in Matt 13 (if related to 1Thes 4), speaks of the righteous be left in tact on earth while the wicked are removed. If we look at Rom 4:13, there's a promise that may be interpreted to say that we believers inherit the world with Abraham. And on past judgments on earth like with the flood and like Sodom and Gomorrah, the wicked are the ones removed. The general concept thenis that only the wicked are removed; this removal occurs during times of judgments. Such preservation of the righteouness to the earth also is reflected in John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. (17) For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.
(Edited -- to complete a sentence that wasn't finished.)
Let's look at the sense of metaphor used for some related concepts.
The idea of Heaven is metaphorically upward in location. Now if people in Israel look upward to the North Star, do those in Fiji look downward to find the heavens? Certainly not. The metaphor is that God's ways are high above ours, in another sense He is out of reach unless He reaches to us. The analogy is furthered by the ability to see how small we are compared to the expanse of the heavens.
Another metaphorical sense occurs in the idea of "rising from the dead." In this analogy, we have the sense that a dead person is both lying down, from which he can rise, and also that he is buried under the ground so that entry back into the living realm requires rising up at least a couple meters. We need not suppose that upon death that we should head upward in some direction (i.e. toward the North Star or away from it) in order to enjoy resurrection. And if we be in Paradise, upon death, to be raised again to the earth, should we suppose that we have risen (in some specific direction) from the dead.
Look at Dan 7:13
I saw in the night-visions, and, behold, there came with the clouds of heaven one like unto a son of man, and he came even to the ancient of days, and they brought him near before him (ASV).
This basically represents an action in God's realm. Jesus doesn't descend to earth. Rather, He moves across [God's] heaven. So in Matt 24, the mention of Christ's "coming in the clouds" refers to the same event. And as this is described in the heavens, then allegorically the living believers must ascend, like those metaphorically "risen from the dead," in order to meet Him in the clouds." Note though that I'm not denying the truth that those who died as believers subsequently have life and consciousness.
Hence, Wright may have a point, maybe a few good points, regarding the expectancy for a rapture.
Last edited by mikew on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:05 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: NT Wright on the "Rapture"
Secondly, in Matt 13 (if related to 1Thes 4), speaks of the righteous be left in tact on earth while the wicked are removed. If we look at Rom 4:13, there's a promise that may be interpreted to say that we believers inherit the world with Abraham. And on past judgments on earth like with the flood and like Sodom and Gomorrah, the wicked are the ones removed. The general concept then
Right, as the greek word for "to meet" the Lord in the air , the greek word is "apatesis" and every other time it was used it meant to greet the visitor and escort him in.
Matt 25.6
John 12.13
Acts 28.15-16
Right, as the greek word for "to meet" the Lord in the air , the greek word is "apatesis" and every other time it was used it meant to greet the visitor and escort him in.
Matt 25.6
John 12.13
Acts 28.15-16