Did God know?

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_Sean
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Post by _Sean » Thu Jul 28, 2005 4:13 am

Damon wrote:IMHO, the difference between the elect and the non-elect is their own free choice. So even though God knew in advance what Cain would do, what God said was still a witness to Cain prior to him making his choice so that Cain couldn't later say that no one told him what he should do.

Right?

Damon
That's right.

I also believe, that God also knows what can happen, and intervenes to change it. Jonah is a good example. 40 days and Nineviah will be destroyed. It wasn't, but would have been if they had not repented.

But I think Calvinist would disagree.
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:36 am

IMHO, the difference between the elect and the non-elect is their own free choice. So even though God knew in advance what Cain would do, what God said was still a witness to Cain prior to him making his choice so that Cain couldn't later say that no one told him what he should do.
This makes no sense to me ..... UNLESS you change the first words of your second sentence to:

"So even though God knew in advance what Cain could do..."

God knew in advance every possible choice that Cain might make!
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_Damon
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Post by _Damon » Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:50 pm

Hi Paidion. I don't understand why you think it's necessary to change "would" to "could" in what I wrote. Could you clarify, please?

Thanks...

Damon
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_Prakk
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I'm a double, he's a double, you could be a double too.

Post by _Prakk » Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:35 pm

Sean wrote:"If God's system is double predestination, God alreadly knew Cain wouldn't be accepted, but He tells Cain he will be accepted if he does well."
Cain doing well is of course, theoreticly possible. First of all let me say that we make the assumption that Cain is of the damned, or at least some of us do, that's an unsafe assumption. What God asks of Cain is more rhetorical, more for us that watch than it is for Cain I think. Furthermore the presentation of a choice to any one of us is more a revealing litmus test than it is a request for men to exercise their non existent "Free Will". God asks, our answer reveals our nature to others and to ourselves. God already knows.

Hugh McBryde
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:20 pm

What would be the benefit of the litmus test that reveals our nature be and to whom would the benefit be. All the consequences of sin which could have been a good lesson to mankind seem to me to be wasted if you truly believe most of man is predestined to eternal hell. I don't see what the point is of going through this process of life which God seems to have designed for a greater purpose than simply sending 95% to eternal damnation.
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_Damon
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Post by _Damon » Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:53 am

Hi Steve.

Look at it this way. All must stand before the judgment seat of God eventually, right? And in order to convict someone, a judge needs evidence, right? Well, then. What evidence would God present to the wicked that they were wicked? He would present the evidence of their own actions in light of the fact that they received treatment from God that was no different from how the righteous were treated! (In other words, God treated Cain the same way as He would have treated someone who was willing to repent, even though God knew in advance that Cain wouldn't repent.)

Makes perfect sense to me.

Damon
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_Prakk
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His point of view, not mine, not yours.

Post by _Prakk » Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:00 am

STEVE7150 wrote:"What would be the benefit of the litmus test that reveals our nature be and to whom would the benefit be."
Us, and the angels.
STEVE7150 wrote:"All the consequences of sin which could have been a good lesson to mankind seem to me to be wasted if you truly believe most of man is predestined to eternal hell."
No, they won't be, that to be frank, is rebellion speaking. All of us will be completed edified at the judgment.
STEVE7150 wrote:"I don't see what the point is of going through this process of life which God seems to have designed for a greater purpose than simply sending 95% to eternal damnation.'
God is not catering to your perception, he's trying to reform your perception so that is like he wants it to be, it's all about submission to him.

Hugh McBryde
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_STEVE7150
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:54 am

When you say "all of us will be completed edified at the judgement" in laymans terms what do you mean? Do you mean purified for heaven or something different?
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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:20 pm

Hi Paidion. I don't understand why you think it's necessary to change "would" to "could" in what I wrote. Could you clarify, please?
Okay. Let's examine again what you posted:
So even though God knew in advance what Cain would do, what God said was still a witness to Cain prior to him making his choice so that Cain couldn't later say that no one told him what he should do.

If God knew in advance what Cain WOULD do, then Cain couldn't have done otherwise. So why would God say words that would be a "witness to Cain prior to him making his choice"? Why tell Cain that he must master sin, when it was impossible for Cain to do so, due to the forknowledge of God. If all events are determined "due to the forknowledge of God", then our choices are illusory, and the world just goes on like a well-oiled machine. No one is accountable for his actions (because he couldn't have done otherwise), and God is the author (cause) of murders, and rapes, and tortures, and all other evils.

Would God tell Cain that he must master sin, when it was impossible for him to do so? Does God ask us to do what is impossible for us to do?

So I just couldn't make sense of your statement as it originally stood.

God DID know in advance what Cain COULD do. He knew that he could
master sin as his brother Abel did. God also knew that he could choose to go on in the same old way. But God didn't know in advance which choice he would make. So God's requiring him to master sin makes perfect sense.
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_Damon
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Post by _Damon » Tue Aug 02, 2005 4:51 pm

Paidion wrote:If God knew in advance what Cain WOULD do, then Cain couldn't have done otherwise.
True, but foreknowledge of a person's actions is not equivalent to control over said person's actions, nor does it equate to God's will. God didn't will a lot of things that have happened in the course of history, but they happened anyway.
Paidion wrote:So why would God say words that would be a "witness to Cain prior to him making his choice"? Why tell Cain that he must master sin, when it was impossible for Cain to do so, due to the forknowledge of God.
Because Cain could have repented! It was possible, but Cain chose not to. God's foreknowledge doesn't make a particular action (or lack thereof) impossible. It's knowing something in advance, not determining something in advance. One is passive whereas the other is active.
Paidion wrote:God DID know in advance what Cain COULD do. He knew that he could master sin as his brother Abel did. God also knew that he could choose to go on in the same old way. But God didn't know in advance which choice he would make. So God's requiring him to master sin makes perfect sense.
I understand why you say that, but I do believe that God knew what Cain would do, more than just knowing what he could do.

I believe what God does is to intervene on the stage of history so that we have the best possible outcome, with the most people possible being saved, without taking away free will and without 'cheating' by blessing people so that they'll love Him. (After all, God proved that with Job.) But even with God intervening, He can't bring everyone to salvation because they all have free will. But He can use other people as well as circumstances to mold them and shape them so that they'll be in a position to repent, if at all possible.

That's what makes sense to me, anyway...

Damon
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