Question re Tongues

[RickC]

Hello all

TK - What you said about the Gift (big G) of tongues with interpretation is the Classical Pentecostal position. You sounded AG (Assemblies of God) right down the line. Well, at least up to the you're not huge 'fan' of tongues/interpretation. You probably knew this stuff.

jepne - I, too, remember the ''charismatic movement (or revival)." For me, that was mid-70s into the early 80s (I "backslid" right around 1982 but came back to faith in 1999). But I do so clearly recall the "moving of the Spirit" in those days and have several stories I tell from time to time about stuff I saw and heard. Really miraculous things, including, one time I spoke in totally perfect Latin during a prayer meeting - while not knowing it at all. Another time I was in a really big church, possibly 1200 in attendance, and was sitting in the balcony. An "utterance in tongues came" (big Gift kind) and the pastor and a guy sitting near me gave the interpretation at the same time. The pastor was mic'd and the guy close to me "yielded" to him (became silent). I opened my eyes to see this, not because I was skeptical or anything like that. I just wanted to be able to say I saw what happened. What was amazing was 1) they both had their eyes closed and, 2) for about 15-20 seconds the guy and pastor were saying exactly the same words (and enunciating and emphasizing each syllable precisely alike)!!! This is the only I've seen this happen.

Steve talks about revivals in some of his lectures. If I'm not mistaken, he sees them as having occurred roughly every 30 years or so. That sounds about right to me. But like Steve, I/we don't know why revival doesn't come, unless the Church is in dire need of repentance, perhaps. But yet still, God in His Wise Providence, sends revival according to His own Counsel.

I've been praying for a revival of sorts in my own life. The gifts of the Spirit have been weighing on my mind. Why I haven't seen "stories" (like my above) in such a long time seems to be, at least in part, that there just hasn't been a pentecostal/charismatic revival happening now (though it's definitely happening in other parts of the world)! That I don't go to a Pentecostal or charismatic church would figure in there on this too. I'm not "earnestly desiring the best gifts" as I could and should be. Something is missing in my walk. I need to pray more.

I'm considering changing churches for several reasons I won't go into now. But one of them is, I simply miss the fellowship of pentecostal/charismatic folks. I'm thinking about The Wesleyan Church which, though they aren't Pentecostal or notably charismatic, they do believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today. I know a former AG pastor who pastors a Wesleyan Church. His wife prophesied at an Ohio District Conference of the WC - and they weighed it out (which is a biblical directive) and fully accepted it!

I'll add lastly that I wouldn't feel all that keen about going back to the AG. I'm amillennial and they're not. Perhaps I'll need to sacrifice some of my beliefs in order to get into good fellowship. Amillennialism in and of itself isn't something I necessarily need to emphasize or share with other believers. I just don't like how many premillennialists talk a lot about supporting Israel, and seem to be blind to our Palestinian brothers and sisters in Christ. What the Middle East needs is JESUS! That's how we can support every nation, by giving them the Gospel, imo!!!

Okay, I'm getting off-topic and think I need a cuppa cawfee....

God bless yous!
Thanks!

Edited in -

I just posted a video interview with Dr. Stanley Horton -
(one of the world's top Pentecostal theologians, and a "living legend") -
here >> http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3271

If you're interested in speaking in tongues and Pentecostal theology & history, check it out!

[SamIam]

TK wrote:
If tongues are not continuing, then many of my dearest and closest friends, and others that I do not know personally but trust implicitly, are dirty liars. I simply cannot accept this.

If your friends are mistaken and are passing along misinformation, that does not make them "dirty liars." It simply makes them mistaken. I am often mistaken, I hope that doesn't make me a dirty liar.

I believe he is referencing the spiritual Gift (big G) of tongues

Where do the scriptures speak of the big G gifts and the little g gifts? (Would that be little "t" tongues?) These seems to be a case of special pleading to circumvent some Biblical teaching.

I believe that every spirit-filled believer has the ability to pray in tongues privately, but each spirit-filled believer may not be gifted with the "Big G" gift of speaking in tongues in a public service.

Where do the scriptures teach the private use of tongues? Is it clearly stated or is it an inference? And if it is an inference, is it a necessary inference?

That being said, I was in a service this past Sunday where there was a public utterance of tongues during the worship service, and also an interpretation. The interpretation sounded all right. However, I must say that personally I am not a huge fan of this use of tongues.

You're not a fan of using tongues as the inspired Apostle Paul directed them to be used?

[TK]

SamIam wrote:

If your friends are mistaken and are passing along misinformation, that does not make them "dirty liars." It simply makes them mistaken. I am often mistaken, I hope that doesn't make me a dirty liar.

If my friends, and others I trust, are just pretending when they are praying in tongues, then I am sorry but they are lying. How can you be mistaken about praying in tongues?

Your wrote:

Where do the scriptures speak of the big G gifts and the little g gifts? (Would that be little "t" tongues?) These seems to be a case of special pleading to circumvent some Biblical teaching.

Well, I wasnt trying to say there is such a teaching. But when Paul made the list of rhetorical questions in 1 Cor 12:29-30, he seems to be listing "offices" or certain functions in the church setting.

You wrote:

Where do the scriptures teach the private use of tongues? Is it clearly stated or is it an inference? And if it is an inference, is it a necessary inference?

I Corinthians 14 settles this issue for me; if it doesn't for you, that is okay. I don't mind at all.

You wrote:

You're not a fan of using tongues as the inspired Apostle Paul directed them to be used?

No, not really- at least not yet. Maybe it is because I have not witnessed it enough to be comfortable with it. If I had an experience like Rick C mentioned it would help. I am always wondering-- "how do i know the interpreter isnt just making it up?" i am not sure how to get past this. If I knew the people really well who were doing the speaking and the interpreting it would help as well. In reading Paul's discussion of public tongues, I get the impression that he wasn't a huge fan of it, either. ("I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy.")

TK

[SamIam]

TK wrote:
If my friends, and others I trust, are just pretending when they are praying in tongues, then I am sorry but they are lying. How can you be mistaken about praying in tongues?

Lots of people around the world "speak in tongues." I don't think it is necessarily prentending (although in some cases I suspect it is). They can be mistaken in thinking that their "speaking in tongues" is a gift from God.

I Corinthians 14 settles this issue for me; if it doesn't for you, that is okay. I don't mind at all.

Which verse in 1 Corinthians 14 describes the private use of tongues?

[SteveF]

TK wrote:

I am always wondering-- "how do i know the interpreter isnt just making it up?" i am not sure how to get past this.]

That's a completely legitimate question TK. In fact we are told to judge the message. It doesn't say how to judge but perhaps (other than comparing it with scripture) questioning the person who gave the message would be appropriate. Questions like, how did the message come to you? Have you ever done anything like this before? As long as we are respectful and loving I think there are some practical ways to go about discerning the legitimacy of a particular message. We are talking about our brothers and sisters after all, so we should be able to deal with these things as a family.

I can tell you that one time my wife was in a church when a message in tongues was given. She felt strongly that she had the interpretation. She had never given an interpretation before and was too nervous to say anything. A short time later someone else got up and gave the exact interpretation she felt she was given. in this instance it would appear the interpretation was accurate. If only it was always as clear as that.

[TK]

samiam wrote:

Which verse in 1 Corinthians 14 describes the private use of tongues?

"He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself" v 4

"For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful." v 14

"I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind." v 15

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church... v 18

I will also state that vv. 22-25 are quite problematic and dont make much sense. I believe there may be a transcription error- although I know saying such a thing is pretty controversial to say the least. First he says tongues are a sign for unbelievers, then he says in essence that unbelievers might get freaked out if they came to chruch and heard people speaking in tongues. And i believe prophecy is for both believers and unbelievers but paul first says that prophecy is for believers, not unbelievers, but then later says that unbelievers can be convicted by a prophecy- or in essence a word of knowledge about a secret of their heart. So the whole passage is very inconsistent. of course it is possible that i am just too dense to figure out what the passage is trying to say.

TK

[TK]

SteveF-

thanks for that post. I might question someone if they gave some sort of an interpretation that just didnt sit right. so far the ones i have heard have been edifying and rather innocuous.

I like that story about your wife. Things like that are always good to hear. Thank goodness there is a supernatural element to our faith.

TK

[SamIam]

TK,

Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the Spirit. On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation. The one who speaks in a tongue builds up himself, but the one who prophesies builds up the church. Now I want you all to speak in tongues, but even more to prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be built up. (1 Cor 14:1-5)

I think you are missing Paul's point. He is not advocating the private use of tongues. Paul wants people to build up the church not themselves. If the message in tongues is not interpreted, then it does not build up the church, and this is a misuse of speaking in tongues. I do not see this as endorsing the private use of tongues.

Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray for the power to interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say "Amen" to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (1 Cor 14:13-19)

To "pray in a tongue" does not seem to be a private use of the tongue. It appears to be public, since that which is spoken in a tongue is to be translated and the thanksgiving is heard by other people. This does not indicate a private use of the tongue.

I would not discount that Paul may be using a bit of a word play on the word that can be translated either "breath" or "spirit" depending on the context. "I will not only pray with my breath (that is, speak a prayer) but I will pray so that others understand me." It is clear from verse 19 that speaking "with my mind" is speaking so that others can understand.

When Paul instructs how tongues should be used in the assembly, that does not endorse a private use of tongues.

Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. In the Law it is written, "By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord." Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign not for unbelievers but for believers. If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you. (1 Cor 14:20-25)

Notice that Paul was characterizing their use of tongues as childish and immature.

The best sense I can make of this paragraph is that tongues were a specific sign for unbelieving Jews, as indicated by the quote from Isaiah. Tongues were never intended as a sign for gentiles. To the unbelieving Jew, who knows the prophecy of Isaiah, tongues are a sign of God's judgement, and, if he accepts the sign, brings the Jew to repentance. (I believe there is always a Jew in the room when tongues are recorded in Acts, and in each case, these Jews were being called to repentance.) Prophecy, on the other hand was for believers. (Which leads me to question why believers are eager to participate in a sign that was never intended for them?) I think the outsiders mentioned in verse 23 are gentile unbelievers who do not have the prophetic background of Isaiah against which to recognize the tongues as a sign. To these unbelieving gentiles, tongues are just a puzzle. If the gentile believers hear prophecy he will hear the word of God. If the unbelieving gentile hears tongues, he hears noise.

[TK]

Samiam-

So what would say to Steve G who states that he DOES pray in tongues privately? (sorry to single you out, Steve) or any other sold out spirit-filled believer who prays in a tongue privately, or under their breath?

When Paul said he spoke in tongues more than any of them, does this mean he was always walking around talking out loud in tongues? It sounds to me that when he was in a group setting he did NOT speak in tongues. So when was he doing all this tongue-speaking?

TK

[SamIam]

TK,

I would tell him to follow the teachings of Jesus.

"And when you pray, do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do, for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him. (Matthew 6:7,8)

Take care not to think that the repition of words means you will be heard.

Pray then like this: "Our Father in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. (Matthew 6:9-13)

Jesus gives us clear teaching on how to pray, and it is in understandable words. Praying in tongues is a practice based on inferences from a questionable interpretation of a difficult to understand section of scripture.

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue. (1 Corinthians 14;18,19)

I think you are missing Paul's point. To a church that seems to have been holding a tongues competition to determine who was the most spiritual, Paul, who had the capability of speaking in tongues more than them all, would rather say one sentence that could be understood than preach a sermon that could not be understood. I would not infer from this statement that Paul actively spoke in tongues more than them all, only that he was capable of doing so, but did not do it because it was not a way to build up the church. Paul was not encouraging speaking in tongues, he was discouraging it.