RICHinCHRIST wrote:Mellontes wrote:1 Corinthians 15:53-54 – For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So WHEN this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
The time when the “mortal” puts on “immortality” is when “Death is swallowed up in victory.” Now, when is “Death is swallowed up in victory”? It occurs at the same time that “the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces” (Isaiah 25:8)
Isaiah 25:8 – He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
So, what is the context of Isaiah 25:8?
Well, we know from Isaiah 25:9 that this is the day of salvation!
Isaiah 25:9 - And it shall be said IN THAT DAY [the day that death is swallowed up in victory] Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation.
Preterists believe salvation was not complete until the parousia for those transitional saints (30 AD-70 AD) because of post cross verses such as...
Hi Mellontes--
I disagree with your assessment of Isaiah 25. Firstly, your saying that salvation didn't happen until AD 70. How could you believe that? Christianity had been growing exponentially the first few decades after Pentecost. If that wasn't because salvation had arrived, I don't know what it was then!
Firstly, I am saying that salvation wasn't COMPLETED until 70AD. That is slightly different than your "didn't happen until 70AD." First, they were sealed with the promise. One day the promise would come true. And you have already seen a multitude of Scriptures quoted by us in regards to that time frame, like Matthew 24:34, for instance. I need not post them all again. But, if you believe that the day of salvation had come to those first century Christians (because Christianity had grown exponentially), then according to Isaiah 25:8, death
was swallowed up in victory. Paul seems to say otherwise though and that is the difficulty...
RICHinCHRIST wrote: "In that day" of salvation Isaiah is speaking of... why must it be AD 70? There are numerous verses in this context that refer to "that day". Do you take all of them quite as literally? For instance, in "that day" you must also believe that the land of Judah sang a song (
Isaiah 26:1ff). But wasn't the land of Judah destroyed on that day, per your interpretation?
Actually, I don't know of any preterist who believes the land of Judea was destroyed in 70AD. You obviously misunderstand what we believe in this regard. It was the city of Jerusalem which was destroyed. That is a far cry from all the land of Judea...As for the song, I must ask which tribe was Christ from?
Hebrews 7:14 - For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Perhaps quoting from Genesis would also help...
Genesis 49:10 - The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Perhaps you are not aware of the two Jerusalems - one earthly and one heavenly. One apostate and one in Christ. One after the flesh and the other after the Spirit. That is why it is difficult sometime to differentiate between the Jerusalem rejoicing and the Jerusalem which receives judgment.
RICHinCHRIST wrote: See Isaiah 26:12-15, 27:1-6, 27:12-13 as well. These phrases do not fit your framework. I see this "day of salvation" as possibly referring to a future restoration of the present Earth at the resurrection when the sons of God are revealed and the creation is liberated from bondage.
I didn't see the planet Earth in Isaiah 25:8-9 at all. Nor is resurrection, sons of God, or creation mentioned. And perhaps you could help me out here. What do you mean by creation? Are you talking plants, animals, mountains, insects, etc.? I was under the impression that the only creation that was in bondage to sin was that which did sin - human beings. I am also under the impression that redemption from that same sin comes as a result of trusting in Christ, something which animals, plants, mountains, and insects cannot do. Isn't that what was meant by 2 Corinthians 5:17?
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Strange word "creature." A little more than half of the translations use the word "creation" for the Greek ktisis in the above verse. Christians literally become new creations in Christ. The new covenant people are in stark contrast to the old covenant people. The OT prophesies of the new creation, the new heaven and earth. The old heaven and earth gives way to the new heaven and earth - Christians. Now, I
KNOW you won't accept that! But unless you can show me where two creations are promised, then what I said is a possibility, especially when understanding the idea that heaven and earth would pass away. But to many futurists, these are speaking of cosmic entities and not Jewish understandings. Ask an orthodox Jew what was meant by heaven and earth sometime. He will answer "the temple." The old covenant temple is replaced by the new covenant temple in CHrist. This was the temple prophesied by Ezekiel. Yet there are those (not saying you are one) who believe this is going to be a rebuilt physical temple...As long as we continue to try to interpret the Bible based upon our Western 21st century understandings, we will be completely lost...
Can you explain what you mean by planetary restoration and support it from Scripture please. I am not saying you can't, it is just that it is tremendously difficult to discuss opinions...I hear a lot of this planet Earth restoration stuff but I never see any Scripture that speaks of that, whether they are old or new testament references. I am also under the impression that the "end" espoused in the OT is the same "end" espoused in the NT. Yet there is clearly nothing related about the "end" in the OT as having anything to do with planet Earth. How would these OT people even know what the planet was named and would they even know it was a planet? And if the "end" from the NT is not the same as the "end" described in the OT, then when is the OT "end," especially since the "end" in the NT is allegedly about the end of time and history? I see the "end" in covenantal terms - the end of the old covenant economy - not in planet Earth terms. Where is it?
RICHinCHRIST wrote:Even so, Rev. 21:4 cannot be fulfilled yet. Why? Christians still cry and weep in the midst of their trials. There are believers in Southeast Asia being martyred as we speak and they are feeling pain and sorrow and death. The wages of sin is death. Sin is still happening. Therefore, the process of death has not ended. You can spiritualize everything else you want to in Revelation 21-22, but you cannot spiritualize verse 4. How can you spiritualize sorrow, crying, or pain? These characteristics are not mere symbols that can be interpreted freely, but they are emotional and can be experienced by human nature. These things have not stopped yet. I have no trouble interpreting Isaiah 25 as future, because Paul did. I see no reason why I should interpret the 'day of salvation' as AD 70.
I realize you cannot view Rev 21:4 as being fulfilled. The pain and sorrow is covenant related. We, 2,000 years removed from the old covenant economy, have absolutely no idea what the burden of the law was like. What do you think Christ meant when he said, "For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light"? Let us not forget that Christ was sent to the house of Israel (old covenant Jews). And Paul did interpret Isaiah 25 as being future TO HIM...but not to us:
Luke 21:20, 28 - ...And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh...And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
RICHinCHRIST wrote:Also, if full-preterism is so important... why didn't God make an apostle write an extra letter to be added to the Canon post-AD 70? Then the apostle could tell us all of these things you are insinuating. Why is it so hard to see your points unless someone accepts your biased framework?
I noticed that you cut my quote off eliminating those verses that indicated exactly what I believe about salvation not being realized fully until 70AD. What explanation would you give to those verses? We believe them.
How would you explain the promise of the Spirit given to those first century saints. What was the promise for and when would the promise be fulfilled? Why was "
Christ in you" a future
HOPE if it had apparently been realized according to your understanding? Is not "
Christ in you" a reference to the
presence of the Lord Jesus? Is not the Parousia defined, at least in part, as a presence. If Christ is in you NOW, then the parousia for that presenvce to come has taken place.
I suppose it all comes down to this one question: "
Are you 100% redeemed right now by what Jesus did upon Calvary + His resurrection?" In other words, was what Jesus accomplished all that is necessary for redemption? Please understand that I am speaking from a 2010 time frame. Is there anything else that I must do in order to get this redemption? Must I physically die to gain complete redemption? Futurism believes this is so.
What do you do with Luke 21:22?
Luke 21:22 - For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Surely you realize that all things written refers to the OT scriptures. And how could they be all fulfilled at this time (destruction of Jerusalem) if the resurrection is mentioned in the OT? Unless the NATURE of that resurrection is different than what futurists presently believe.
Way too long of a post. Sorry. It is difficult to address so much at one time. I wish we could focus in on one thing and park there a while...