steve wrote:Mellontes,
You are still awaiting a reply to your original question, so I might offer one. The parables are set in the scenario of a single lifetime, it is true. However, nothing compels us to take every detail of a parable strictly literally.
No one is suggesting that everything be taken in an exact literal manner here. However, Jesus does make it painstakingly clear that he "returned" to the same generation that he left. I can't imagine why He would say such a thing if we are to accept your reasoning.
steve wrote:Jesus, when He left, left a church to which He had given opportunities and resources to invest for His kingdom. This remains true in every generation, and people of every generation will stand before Him and give an account for their stewardship.
Sure. no problem here...but where is this mentioned in those two parables? You are beginning to get off track...
steve wrote:The nature of the stories embedded in the parables lent itself to describing a man who comes and goes in a single lifetime (because the character is assumed to be a mortal man, and therefore, for the purpose of the stories, he must accomplish everything in his one human lifetime)—which would, in the nature of the case, require that it also be in the lifetime of those same servants.
I don't see how that understanding would jive with those who teach the final parousia event from those two parables, unless you are suggesting that the one who does return is nothing but a mere mortal man? I doubt that you are considering that.
steve wrote:The fulfillment need not occur in a single generation.
That's a very attractive assertion and
seemingly reeks of humanism. I would require Scripture to support your assertion...I see
LOTS of contrary Scripture that does indeed support the concept that there are specific points in history when things are to be fulfilled, for instance:
Matthew 8:29 – And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Matthew 21:34 – And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Matthew 26:18 – And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.
Mark 1:15 – And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mark 14:41 – And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest; it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Luke 9:51 – And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he steadfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,
Luke 12:56 – Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Luke 19:44 – And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Luke 22:29 – And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
John 7:6 – Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is always ready.
John 7:8 – Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.
John 16:4 – But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.
John 16:25 – These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall show you plainly of the Father.
Acts 7:17 – But when the time of the promise drew nigh, which God had sworn to Abraham, the people grew and multiplied in Egypt,
Acts 17:26 – And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Acts 17:31 – Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
1 Corinthians 4:9 – For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
Galatians 4:2 – But [the heir] is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
Galatians 4:4 – But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
1 Thessalonians 3:3 – That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 – For God hath not appointed us [1st century Christians] to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 Timothy 1:11 – Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
Hebrews 1:2 – Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hebrews 9:27 – And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
1 Peter 1:5 – Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 2:8 – And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1 Peter 4:17 – For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
2 Peter 2:3 – And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
1 John 2:18 – Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Jude 1:18 – How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
Revelation 1:3 – Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 11:18 – And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Revelation 12:12 – Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Revelation 14:15 – And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Revelation 22:10 – And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
...to name just a few. I can almost hear you thinking, "Ah, yes this is true EXCEPT for the coming parousia."
steve wrote:Parables do not always conform in every detail to the thing to which they correspond (for example, it takes a short time for leaven to permeate a lump of dough, but the parable of the leaven describes a process that extended over a much longer period of time).
You forgot to mention that neither of those two "leaven" parables have ANY time information. My two parables did. And that is the whole point, Steve. If futurists are going to teach the final parousia event from those two parables (and they do), they need to be consistent with what is being taught within those parables.
Do you believe there was an appointed time for the second coming? I mean was there an ordained time as to which generation Christ should appear the second time? Or do you believe it is for each generation and then there is some kind of postponement? Really, I would like to know your thoughts on that matter. I especially would like to see the Scriptures you would be bringing forth to support your view. I certainly don't know everything you know...
Because if you do believe that there was a "fullness of time" in which that great historical event would occur, then why was Elijah (John the Baptist) sent to first century Christians proclaiming both the kingdom and the wrath of God? Everything points to that first century for fulfillment.
Please respond to my questions...
