James Stuart Russell’s position

[steve7150]

Full preterists believe that immortality and incorruption come via the Gospel message through and in Christ. We also believe that the enemy stemming from the all rule and authority refers to old covenant stuff and its general opposition to the initiation of the Gospel. The unbelieving, apostate, rebellious, Christ-hating Jews were absolutely relentless against the church! You believe that all rule and authority applies to everything contrary to God right now.





Not just right now but throughout the history of mankind including the church age virtually every bible believer believed "evil" pertained to the evil in the world as Paul said in Rom 8. No one interpreted evil as just the old covenant stuff as you describe it.
I notice you use phrases whenever you can like "Christ hating jews" as if they are in a different category from Christ hating Romans or the Papacy killing millions of Christ followers throughout the middle ages. Christ was jewish, his early followers were jewish and many jews were not Christ hating they just believed their religious leaders since almost all were illiterate. Somehow i don't think any of this will make you think twice about using expressions like "Christ hating jews" every chance you get. You are who you are.

[Mellontes]

Full preterists believe that immortality and incorruption come via the Gospel message through and in Christ. We also believe that the enemy stemming from the all rule and authority refers to old covenant stuff and its general opposition to the initiation of the Gospel. The unbelieving, apostate, rebellious, Christ-hating Jews were absolutely relentless against the church! You believe that all rule and authority applies to everything contrary to God right now.





Not just right now but throughout the history of mankind including the church age virtually every bible believer believed "evil" pertained to the evil in the world as Paul said in Rom 8. No one interpreted evil as just the old covenant stuff as you describe it.
I notice you use phrases whenever you can like "Christ hating jews" as if they are in a different category from Christ hating Romans or the Papacy killing millions of Christ followers throughout the middle ages. Christ was jewish, his early followers were jewish and many jews were not Christ hating they just believed their religious leaders since almost all were illiterate. Somehow i don't think any of this will make you think twice about using expressions like "Christ hating jews" every chance you get. You are who you are.

I use Christ-hating Jews because they were the ones who had Christ crucified. What would you call that? Those who loved Christ? Liked Christ? Those Christ-hating Jews were the enemy of the Gospel. I'm sorry if that offends you. Those Christ-hating Jews persecuted the Lord's church at every possible chance. I'm sorry if that offends you too. Truth is truth.

It seems that many wish to elevate those alleged Jews in the Middle East as still having something to do with Bible prophecy. Nothing can be further from the truth. Many believe that these "Jews" have been restored to the land despite the conditions for restoration, and that is repentance and a return to their God!. Such is not the case. Many believe that we are to support the present nation of Israel even though the land was stolen from the Palestinians. Nothing could be further from the truth. Many believe we are to support Israel no matter what they do despite their present ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population. Perhaps you are one of those many. The unbelieving Israeli is absolutely no different than an unbelieving Chinese. Both need to come into covenant with God through Jesus Christ.

But in the first century when Christ walked the land, yes, they were Christ hating Jews. That is who the wrath of God was to be poured out upon...

[Michelle]

The unbelieving Israeli is absolutely no different than an unbelieving Chinese. Both need to come into covenant with God through Jesus Christ.

I absolutely agree with you on this. Interesting that you chose unbelieving Chinese, though, because I've been wondering what you would say to believing Chinese, many of whom suffer persecution, imprisonment, and torture for their beliefs. Will there be any judgment on their persecutors; will there be any reward for their sufferings; or is their only hope or reward found in the fact that one day it will all be over and their spirits will join the rest of us in heaven?

This also made me wonder about what you believe about eternal security. If resurrection, conversion, and regeneration are all one and the same, and if the scriptures about resurrection speak of never dying (Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" John 11: 25-26) then it seems logical that you would believe that one can never lose his salvation. So, would you recommend that Chinese believers simply join the Three Self Patriotic Church, which is a tool of the government to infiltrate and control the church, yet it offers protection against persecution?

And that led me to another question: What about the Beatitudes? (“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:10) Since the audience was made up of pre-AD 70 Jews, does this blessing only apply to them?

[Mellontes]

The unbelieving Israeli is absolutely no different than an unbelieving Chinese. Both need to come into covenant with God through Jesus Christ.

I absolutely agree with you on this. Interesting that you chose unbelieving Chinese, though, because I've been wondering what you would say to believing Chinese, many of whom suffer persecution, imprisonment, and torture for their beliefs. Will there be any judgment on their persecutors; will there be any reward for their sufferings; or is their only hope or reward found in the fact that one day it will all be over and their spirits will join the rest of us in heaven?

This also made me wonder about what you believe about eternal security. If resurrection, conversion, and regeneration are all one and the same, and if the scriptures about resurrection speak of never dying (Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" John 11: 25-26) then it seems logical that you would believe that one can never lose his salvation. So, would you recommend that Chinese believers simply join the Three Self Patriotic Church, which is a tool of the government to infiltrate and control the church, yet it offers protection against persecution?

And that led me to another question: What about the Beatitudes? (“Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:10) Since the audience was made up of pre-AD 70 Jews, does this blessing only apply to them?

Although I am not one to say there are differing degree of rewards in eternity, all I can really say is that the godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. There were many(some?) who did fall away before the parousia. Did this mean they fell away from salvation? I don't know. I think now we are secure in our salvation because it is not us who keeps it. I have always asked those who believe they could lose "their" salvation the following questions:

"What will cause you to lose your salvation?" And "How will you know if you lost it?" Will you have to be saved all over again? Please understand that I am not advocating a license to sin at every turn. That isn't even remotely Scriptural..

Should the persecuted Christians in China join the Three Self Patriotic Church? I am not advocating that either. I guess it would be similar (but on a much lesser scale) to someone holding a gun to our head and asking us to renounce Christ or else!

As for "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake," I would put this under the category of eternal PRINCIPLES and not historical events (parousia) such as do not steal, love thy neighbor, etc. It doesn't feel like blessing when one is persecuted though...perhaps it is more of a sign (indicator) that one is following the Truth (Jesus Christ).

I wonder how dispensational theology works with the present torture and persecution of many Christians world-wide... The belief that the church will be lifted from off this planet before the alleged future tribulation is not only a myth but presupposes that what those persecuted Chinese Christians are presently enduring is nothing but a walk in the park. Persecution was brought to bear in Jerusalem so that there would be a scattering, and along with it, the furtherance of the Gospel message.

And something I have thought of before is this:

We understand how it was the unbelieving Jews who had Christ crucified. It was also at the hands (either directly or indirectly) that the unbelieving Jews brought persecution upon the church. Yet, in many eschatological views, it is the Jews who are being persecuted when God comes to execute judgment on the persecutors. That is totally backwards to the Scriptures! To me, this just offers further evidence (aside from the first century imminence) that the parousia came to the generation in which Christ said it would. If Elijah (John the Baptist) was prophecied to come before the great and terrible day of the Lord, did God make a mistake by sending him to the wrong generation?

Malachi 4:5-6 - Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

I see similarity to that day in Joel as well:

Joel 2:31 - The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

And one last thing. You said, "if resurrection, conversion, and regeneration are all one and the same." They are the same in this now post-parousia world. The resurrection also included the OT faithful and those who died pre-parousia from the realm of hades (where they went in pre-parousia times) at the parousia in 70 AD. And since this "death" has been defeated as well, when a believer dies now, they go directly to the Lord; there is no stopover in Hades to await their resurrection at a future parousia coming....

[steve7150]

I use Christ-hating Jews because they were the ones who had Christ crucified. What would you call that? Those who loved Christ? Liked Christ? Those Christ-hating Jews were the enemy of the Gospel. I'm sorry if that offends you. Those Christ-hating Jews persecuted the Lord's church at every possible chance. I'm sorry if that offends you too. Truth is truth






As you know the bible says the slaying of the lamb was determined before the foundation of the world and as you know it says three times the jews were blinded so they could not see and as you know Christ died for the sins of the world. The sins of the world means every person who has ever lived, Christ died for. Isaiah said none are righteous therefore none of us deserve any credit without Christ and none come to him without the Holy Spirit, which was'nt available to the "Christ hating jews." Truth is truth.
As you also know i mentioned nothing about modern day Israel

[Mellontes]

...Isaiah said none are righteous therefore none of us deserve any credit without Christ and none come to him without the Holy Spirit, which was'nt available to the "Christ hating jews." Truth is truth.
As you also know i mentioned nothing about modern day Israel

I never said you mentioned anything about modern day Israel...I'm just saying that many believe modern-day Israel is still to fulfill prophecy, although that is a myth.

And what you said regarding the concept that it "wasn't available to the Christ hating Jews" is pure nonsense. Who do you think the 3,000 were from Acts 2:41? Who do you think the 5,000 were from Acts 4:4? Who do you think the 144,000 from Revelation 7:4 represented?

[steve7150]

And what you said regarding the concept that it "wasn't available to the Christ hating Jews" is pure nonsense. Who do you think the 3,000 were from Acts 2:41? Who do you think the 5,000 were from Acts 4:4? Who do you think the 144,000 from Revelation 7:4 represented?
Mellontes








I lost track of which "Christ hating jews" you were referring to but i know this much that throughout history there were countless Christ hating people from every race and from every place yet you seem to focus in on only one group of people.
Anyway this is all i have to say on this and full-preterism, i've heard enough.