The rest of the dead did not come to life.....

[Duncan]

Hi Rick,

I resonate with Daniel 7:21-22. I see it supporting a premillennial position. Now I am a preterist so I am talking about a premillennial preterist position. That is, that the Second Advent happened at AD 70 and that was the beginning of the millennium (this was JS Russell's position).

It is important to understand that the sequence of Revelation 19:11-20:4 parallels that of Daniel 7:21-22.

I was watching and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
Daniel 7:21-22

Daniel 7 clearly shows a premillennial sequence; it is right after the AD 70 coming of God to defeat of the Antichrist (the little horn) that the saints possess the kingdom. This parallels the sequence of Revelation 19:11-20:4. It is right after the AD 70 coming of the Word of God to defeat the Antichrist (the beast, Rev. 19:11-21) that the saints possess the kingdom (as the millennium begins; Rev. 20:1-4; cf. Dan. 7:7-11). Notice how Daniel 7 shows God’s people having gone through the great tribulation just prior to possessing the kingdom (i.e., the little horn prevailing against the saints in verse 21; cf. v. 25). It is the same in Revelation 20:4; one of the groups that come alive at the beginning of the millennium consists of those who had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast (I do not usually see this point brought up in discussions about the millennium). This is a reference to their having gone through to the great tribulation of AD 67-70 (cf. Rev. 13:7-18); they had been killed by the Antichrist. Thus an AD 70 beginning to the milennium is shown.


If anyone wants to read my chapter on Daniel 7 they can do so at the Google preview. I believe it is one of the most important prophetic chapters in the Bible and most people do not know much about it. Go the address below and start on pg. 99. Be sure to hit the full screen button at the top, it makes for easier reading. http://books.google.com/books?id=ZL89vm ... &q&f=false

[RickC]

Hi Rick,

I resonate with Daniel 7:21-22. I see it supporting a premillennial position. Now I am a preterist so I am talking about a premillennial preterist position. That is, that the Second Advent happened at AD 70 and that was the beginning of the millennium (this was JS Russell's position).

It is important to understand that the sequence of Revelation 19:11-20:4 parallels that of Daniel 7:21-22.

I was watching and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.
Daniel 7:21-22

First, I read what little showed on google for your book (just two paragraphs). Otherwise, I see Rev 19 referring back to Daniel 7 (call it 'allusions' or 'parallels' or what have you). Like you, I see the saints receiving the kingdom at the beginning of the millennium. Unlike you, I believe the millennium began at Christ's ascension and enthronement. The 'angel' who bound the devil for the thousand years in Rev 20:1-3 was probably the Lord Jesus Himself. One reason the millennium could not have begun in 70AD, imo, is -
Matthew 19:28 (NKJV)
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus, the Son of Man, sat on his throne of glory upon his ascension. Jesus gave the 12 Apostles authority to judge Israel, which began at Pentecost with the preaching of the gospel. Their mission of judging Israel - 12 judges on 12 thrones - was in operation from Pentecost onward. They could not have received the kingdom (participating in the reign of Christ) at or after 70AD. Several, if not most of them, were dead before then. Rather, they had been given commission to be Twelve Judges of Israel just prior to the ascension in 1AD.

Daniel 7 clearly shows a premillennial sequence; it is right after the AD 70 coming of God to defeat of the Antichrist (the little horn) that the saints possess the kingdom. This parallels the sequence of Revelation 19:11-20:4. It is right after the AD 70 coming of the Word of God to defeat the Antichrist (the beast, Rev. 19:11-21) that the saints possess the kingdom (as the millennium begins; Rev. 20:1-4; cf. Dan. 7:7-11). Notice how Daniel 7 shows God’s people having gone through the great tribulation just prior to possessing the kingdom (i.e., the little horn prevailing against the saints in verse 21; cf. v. 25). It is the same in Revelation 20:4; one of the groups that come alive at the beginning of the millennium consists of those who had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast (I do not usually see this point brought up in discussions about the millennium). This is a reference to their having gone through to the great tribulation of AD 67-70 (cf. Rev. 13:7-18); they had been killed by the Antichrist. Thus an AD 70 beginning to the millennium is shown.

Once again, we agree the saints came to possess the kingdom at the beginning of the millennium and on Rev-Daniel 'allusions' or 'parallels'. Where I disagree (again) is with Rev 20:4. Namely, on the translation of the Greek word ἔζησαν. Versions that have "came to life" are incorrect, imo. The correct translation is [literally] "lived" as with the ASV -
Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as worshiped not the beast, neither his image, and received not the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they lived (ἔζησαν), and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead lived (ἔζησαν) not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.
These are the only two occurrances of this particular word in the NT. ἔζησαν is a verb: (3rd Person, Aorist, Active Indicative, Plural). Translations that have it meaning “dead persons who return to life" are reading into the word something that's not there - most likely in order to make it fit 'first resurrection' in v. 5b. The plain meaning is "lived."
I wrote earlier that those who "lived" and co-reign with Christ are in two classes while yet remaining the same. They/we are: 1) all from among the nations who are no longer deceived by the devil and are seated on thrones of judgment on earth and, 2) those who lived but were martyred. They, the saints of all time, including those who lived and became the martyred dead..."lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (Rev 20:4). The former ("we who are alive") share his reign now. The latter reigned with Christ before they died, and we could say 'reigned through death" ("he who overcomes/endures to the end").

Slight amendments from page 1 -
What I'm seeing differently than before -
Those from among the NATIONS (who are no longer deceived) are SITTING on the THRONES.
(The text says, "and they sat on them", v. 4 referring back to v. 3).
THEY have been given authority to JUDGE (by the testimony of Jesus & Word of God).
THEY, whether they had LIVED and become martyrs, or simply LIVED all their lives for God.
THUS, "the millennium" is the co-reign of the saints with Christ "on earth as it is in heaven."
Christ reigning from heaven, saints co-possessing the kingdom on earth.
THE FIRST RESURRECTION is the ever-present living hope of the [reigning] saints that:
They will be raised to eternal life.
Even if they die, they shall live again.
Eph 2 (AMP)
5Even when we were dead (slain) by [our own] shortcomings and trespasses, He made us alive together in fellowship and in union with Christ; [He gave us the very life of Christ Himself, the same new life with which He quickened Him, for] it is by grace (His favor and mercy which you did not deserve) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation).
6And He raised us up together with Him and made us sit down together [giving us joint seating with Him] in the heavenly sphere [by virtue of our being] in Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
============================================================

I'm not claiming to know-it-all, but I know more than I did!
And we may not agree on many details here, Duncan...but....
Thanks!

[Duncan]

Hi Rick,

You wrote,

First, I read what little showed on google for your book (just two paragraphs). Otherwise, I see Rev 19 referring back to Daniel 7 (call it 'allusions' or 'parallels' or what have you). Like you, I see the saints receiving the kingdom at the beginning of the millennium. Unlike you, I believe the millennium began at Christ's ascension and enthronement. The 'angel' who bound the devil for the thousand years in Rev 20:1-3 was probably the Lord Jesus Himself. One reason the millennium could not have begun in 70AD, imo, is -

Matthew 19:28 (NKJV)
28 So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Jesus, the Son of Man, sat on his throne of glory upon his ascension. Jesus gave the 12 Apostles authority to judge Israel, which began at Pentecost with the preaching of the gospel. Their mission of judging Israel - 12 judges on 12 thrones - was in operation from Pentecost onward. They could not have received the kingdom (participating in the reign of Christ) at or after 70AD. Several, if not most of them, were dead before then. Rather, they had been given commission to be Twelve Judges of Israel just prior to the ascension in 1AD.
__________________________________

MY RESPONSE
I believe that the scripture you gave actually supports my point. The regeneration was to happen at the AD 70 Second Coming.

Repent therfore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things . . . . Acts 3:19-21

The time of Jesus sitting on throne of his glory also speaks of AD 70

When the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All nations will be gathered before Him and He will separate them one from another, as s a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. Matt. 25:31-32

Now it is true that Jesus obtained all power in heaven and earth at his ascension (Dan. 7:13-14 cf. Matt. 28:18) but it was at ad 70 that he would fully excercise this power. This is shown in Rev. 11:15-18 where God takes his great power and fully begins reigning (as the kingdoms of this wolrd become the kingdom of God) at the destruction of those who were destroying the Land (of Israel). This is shown in Daniel 2 in the form of the collapse of the human statue (vv. 34-35, 44-45) and in Dan. 7:7-11 where the four beast all lose their authority at the same time, at the AD 70 coming of God (vv. 21-22). This is also shown in Luke 19:11-27, where the servants of the nobleman fully enter his reign when he returns from a long journey (ie AD 70).

Now as they heard these things, He spoke another parable, because He was near Jerusalem and because they thought the kingdom of God would appear immediately. Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. So he called ten of his servants, delivered to them ten minas, and said to them, ‘Do business till I come.’ But his citizens hated him, and sent a delegation after him, saying, ‘We will not have this man to reign over us.’ And so it was that when he returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ And he said to him, ‘Well done good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’ And the second came, saying ‘Master, your mina has earned five minas.’ Likewise he said to him, ‘You also be over five cities.’ Then another came, saying, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have kept put away in a handkerchief. For I feared you, because you are an austere man. You collect what you did not deposit, and reap what you did not sow.’ And he said to him, ‘Out of your own mouth I will judge you, you wicked servant. You knew that I was an austere man, collecting what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow. Why then did you not put my money in the bank, that at my coming I might have collected it with interest?’ And he said to those who stood by, ‘Take the mina from him and give it to him who has ten minas.’ (But they said to him, ‘Master, he has ten minas.’) For I say to you, that to everyone who has will be given: and from him who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. But bring those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me.”
Luke 19:11-27

SATAN WAS DEFEATED AT THE CROSS
Hebrews 2:14 talks of Jesus’ defeat of Satan at the cross, “inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.” (Heb. 2:14) It should be noted that the word for destroy here (Gr. katargeo) means to reduce to inactivity, or render useless. Satan was not destroyed in the sense of ceasing to exist at the cross but in the sense of being completely defeated (cf. Col. 2:14-15). This is seen in the fact that Satan is still around and still active after the cross (Eph. 6:11; James 4:7).

At Satan’s defeat at the cross he was judged and thrown out of heaven. Shortly before His crucifixion, Jesus said, “Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.” (John 12:31). Revelation 12 shows this casting of Satan out of heaven to the earth at the ascension of Jesus. It is important to notice that Satan was cast to the earth unbound at this time; he was not cast into the abyss (as those who want to start the millennium at AD 30 like to say). This was at the time of Christ’s ascension, the time the male Child is caught up to God’s throne (Rev. 12:5-10). The kingdom of God was initiated in heaven at this time, but not fully on earth:

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, ‘Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down . . . Therefore rejoice, O heaven and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time. Revelation 12:10, 12

The time between the ascension and the Second Coming was the time of the already and not yet of the kingdom (cf. Luke 19:11-27). While Jesus won all authority in heaven and earth at AD 30 (Matt. 28:18), He wouldn’t fully exercise that authority on earth until the AD 70 Second Coming (Matt. 16:27-28, 25:31; cf. Rev. 11:15-18). Thus in 1 John 3:8 we read, “. . . For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.” Two chapters later, however, we are told, “. . . the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one” (1 John 5:19). That does not sound like the time of the millennium just yet

At AD 30 Satan had a short time until he would be bound for the millennium (Rev. 12:12). This short time was the forty years from AD 30 to AD 70 (ironically this is the time that full preterists say was the millennium). This is why the NT (which was written prior to AD 70) portrays Satan as loose and active during this time (2 Cor. 4:4; Eph. 2:2; 6:11-12; 1 Thess. 2:18; 2 Thess. 2:9; James 4:7; 1 Peter 5:8).

Not sure why the google book preview is not working for you. Here it is again (my chapter on Daniel 7 starts on pg 99) http://books.google.com/books?id=ZL89vm ... &q&f=false