Enoch & Elijah

[darinhouston]

Enoch and Elijah are said to have gone to "heaven" without dying. I find both accounts sufficiently ambiguous to believe they might not have actually gone to "heaven" in the sense that Jesus did. Further, though, if they did in fact go to "heaven" without dying, then were their bodies glorified? If not, I fail to see how their material bodies could have "entered heaven" and if so that would seem to contradict Jesus being the firstfruits and the first to have been glorified in the resurrection of the body.

This is baffling, and only slightly more baffling than the question of how Jesus' "body" (glorified or not) could have been taken (not left on earth) to heaven with Him. Steve has partially satisifed that inquiry for me in noting the potential "phase change" of sorts that may accompany glorification that permits the material to be somewhat immaterial as Jesus did materialize, dematerialize, etc. (though so did Philip at one point, it seems, in his earthly body - Acts 8, and Paul and Ezekiel seemed to experience something that could have been a bodily transportation).

Does anyone have thoughts or resources on the Enoch/Elijah glorification question?

[TK]

I remember Paidion believed that Elijah and Enoch were not in heaven but somehow "preserved" alive and in fact will be the two witnesses mentioned in Revelation. This was from the old forum I believe- i will take a look and see if i can find the link. I cant remember if we discussed the glorification issue.

TK

[TK]

the discussion on the old forum re enoch and elijah is HERE

It begins with my 5/21/08 post.

TK

[SamIam]

My first impression is that Enoch and Elijah experienced what all those in Christ will experience at His coming:

I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

"Death is swallowed up in victory." "O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?"

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

(1 Corinthians 15:50-56, ESV)

They were changed in the twinkling of an eye, and their mortal bodies put on immortality.

[darinhouston]

My first impression is that Enoch and Elijah experienced what all those in Christ will experience at His coming:
***
They were changed in the twinkling of an eye, and their mortal bodies put on immortality.

Paidion pointed out the problem I have with their being "in Heaven" (prior to the time of the Apostles at least), as follows:

According to the words of Jesus, they could not already be in heaven since, "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man." [John 3:13]

We further know that Jesus is the "firstfruits" of the "new creation," so I don't see how they could be in the state SamIam suggests even in some location other than "heaven."

[SamIam]

I am not sure that Jesus was intending to make the point that Paidion asserts.

"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. (John 3:9-15, ESV)

It seems the point Jesus is making is that His teaching is authoritative because its source is heaven and He speaks of what He knows and has seen. No other teacher is qualified in this manner. He was not speaking directly to the point of who may have been taken into heaven and never returned as a teacher.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For "God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "all things are put in subjection," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15: 20-28, ESV)

It seems that Paul's point is that the ressurection of Jesus is the pattern for, and the assurance of, the ressurection of those who belong to Christ. The general rule is that those in Christ will be ressurected at His coming. This does not necessarily preclude exceptions to this rule who have been "changed" for whatever purpose God may have had for them.

[Mellontes]

Enoch and Elijah are said to have gone to "heaven" without dying. I find both accounts sufficiently ambiguous to believe they might not have actually gone to "heaven" in the sense that Jesus did. Further, though, if they did in fact go to "heaven" without dying, then were their bodies glorified? If not, I fail to see how their material bodies could have "entered heaven" and if so that would seem to contradict Jesus being the firstfruits and the first to have been glorified in the resurrection of the body.

This is baffling, and only slightly more baffling than the question of how Jesus' "body" (glorified or not) could have been taken (not left on earth) to heaven with Him. Steve has partially satisifed that inquiry for me in noting the potential "phase change" of sorts that may accompany glorification that permits the material to be somewhat immaterial as Jesus did materialize, dematerialize, etc. (though so did Philip at one point, it seems, in his earthly body - Acts 8, and Paul and Ezekiel seemed to experience something that could have been a bodily transportation).

Does anyone have thoughts or resources on the Enoch/Elijah glorification question?

Does not the following verse give implication that Elijah did not leave the planet? He went up by a whirlwind into heaven, yes, but what does that really mean in the context of this verse?

2 Chronicles 21:12 - And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah...

This was after Elijah had been taken...

And as for Elijah being one of the witnessess in Revelation, did not Jesus say (regarding John the Baptist) that:

Matthew 11:13-14 - For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, which was for to come.

I am also under the impression that the church is Christ's glorified body...

[look2jesus]

Darin,
Do you see any difficulty in the poosibility that Enoch and Elijah simply joined the rest of the pre-resurrection saints wherever they might have been assembled? I sort of lean in that direction.

l2j

[darinhouston]

Darin,
Do you see any difficulty in the poosibility that Enoch and Elijah simply joined the rest of the pre-resurrection saints wherever they might have been assembled? I sort of lean in that direction.

l2j

The same difficulty exists because with those saints we're only dealing with "souls/spirits" and with Enoch/Elijah, I'm wondering where there bodies would be (and especially before Christ rose).

[Sean]

As far as the statement "No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
doesn't Paul's statement in 2 Cor 12 also throw a wrench into it?

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows—such a one was caught up to the third heaven. 3 And I know such a man—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows— 4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

I certainly understand your concern Darin. I'm a bit undecided on the matter as well. I lean towards the possibility that Enoch (and maybe Elijah) were taken up to heaven somehow, and Jesus statement is 99.9% accurate.

Kinda like these statements:
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment

Yet Hebrews also says:
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

It seems like a case of Enoch (and maybe Elijah) being an exception to the rule.