When is the begining of the kingdom of God?

[SamMcNear]

Most teachers of A-millennialism teach that the beginning of the millennial reign or kingdom age starts at the time of Christ’s resurrection from the cross.

When reading scripture I seem to be seeing something different. Tell me if my thinking is correct

In Luke 21:31 Jesus says “31Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near”

I feel the "things" that Jesus is talking about here is the destruction of Jerusalem which happened in 70 AD. But Jesus says “when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near” He says Near not that it started after Jesus’ resurrection.

I think I’m either missing something big or I will have to believe that the millennial reign started after 70 AD or the dispensationalists are right about this one thing.

All of this goes under my other assumption that the kingdom of God and the millennial reign are one and the same thing.

Please help me clear this issue up in my head Thanks 

[Sean]

Scripture does seem to teach the coming of the kingdom after the old order was put down (70AD).

Matthew 16:28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

And compare these parallel statements:

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.
Luke 21:31 So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the door.

It seems as if the kingdom coming may have been the establishment of the King and His people (Christians) over and above the old covenant and it's temple. There was an overlap period of about 40 years, just as there was before the Israelites entered the promised land. Once judgment was passed on Jerusalem and it's temple, only the kingdom of God was left. That would be my guess.

[Mellontes]

I think all here would agree that we are presently living in the kingdom of God (in Christ).
I see that the previous posters see the nearness of the kingdom in association with the destruction of Jerusalem.
Scripture tells us that all things written (OT) would be fulfilled at the destruction of Jerusalem. The resurrection (however one defines it) is mentioned in Daniel as a future event (OT).

Luke 21:22 - For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Scripture also tells us that the destruction of Jerusalem is the time when redemption comes:

Luke 21:28 - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Redemption and resurrection are closely related terms no matter how it is defined. Both are associated with the parousia of Christ.

Mark 13:4 (YLT) - Tell us when these things shall be? and what is the sign when all these may be about to be [Strong's 3195] fulfilled?'

Luke 21:7 (YLT) - And they questioned him, saying, `Teacher, when, then, shall these things be? and what is the sign when these things may be about to [Strong's 3195]happen?'

Anyway, I have said enough. The "about to" timing of the judgment matches well with the "about to" timing of the parousia which matches the "about to" destruction of Jerusalem and its old covenant economy. Out with the old world and in with the new...To me, the conclusion is obvious. We have put aside the timing in favor of a predetermined NATURE of time of the end events...

[steve7150]

Scripture also tells us that the destruction of Jerusalem is the time when redemption comes:

Luke 21:28 - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.







Scripture does'nt tell me the destruction of Jerusalem ushers in our redemption , unless i believed in advance it somehow had some connection with it. Jesus death and resurrection redeemed me , not the destruction of Jerusalem. In Luke 21.24 it says "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled." 70 AD was not that fulfillment as Jerusalem continued to be trampled by gentiles.

[Mellontes]

Scripture does'nt tell me the destruction of Jerusalem ushers in our redemption, unless i believed in advance it somehow had some connection with it. Jesus death and resurrection redeemed me , not the destruction of Jerusalem. In Luke 21.24 it says "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the gentiles until the times of the gentiles are fulfilled." 70 AD was not that fulfillment as Jerusalem continued to be trampled by gentiles.

You are quite correct. The destruction of Jerusalem DOES NOT usher in our redemption.
You are quite correct that redemption is all of Christ.

It would seem that you think that I said either of those were false. Not so. The destruction of Jerusalem erradicted the old covenant economy. Only the new would remain...this was the judgment upon those who wanted no part in Christ. It also provided deliverance to the persecuted Christian church as 2 Thess 1:6-7 clearly shows, in my opinion of course.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them [the persecuting Judiazers] that trouble you [Christians];
7 And to you who are troubled [persecuted Christians] rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

You and I both realize that the "you" from that verse were first century Christians. You and I both realize that those who were troubling these first century Christians were the first century, unbelieving, old covenant Jews. You and I both know that these two verses have always been exegeted by non-preterists alike as concerning the Parousia of Jesus Christ. All one has to do is put two and two together...

I really like how 2 Thessalonians begins along this same vein of thought...

2 Thessalonians 2:1 - Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Most students (and scholars) of the Bible believe that Paul is somehow now addressing individuals 2,000 years into the future (like he was apparently doing in verses 6-7 from the first chapter). He is not. His audience remains the same throughout the epistle...

But I did give you the TIMING for all of these redemtive events to occur. It was the role of the high priset to enter into the holy of holies with the blood offering and then to come back (return) signifying that the offering had been accepted. Now, if you are able (and I fully think you are), you should easily be able to apply these types and shadows to the death, resurrection, and parousia of our Lord Jesus Christ...

Anyway...I have likely overstayed my welcome with all this Scripture...

[Homer]

I am pressed for time, but here are a few thoughts.

Jesus was a King from His birth:

Matthew 2:2
2. saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

He acknowledged that He was a King prior to His crucifixion:

Matthew 27:11
11. Now Jesus stood before the governor. And the governor asked Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?”
Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”

The kingdom was available to be entered into during Jesus' ministry:

Matthew 4:17
17. From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

And people were entering into it:

Luke 16:16. “The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

And Paul wrote that people were in the kingdom prior to AD70:

Colossians 1:13-14
13. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14. in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

IMO the kingdom is, and has been, present in one sense since Jesus' ministry began. He is our king and we are His subjects, as people have been since they gave their allegience to His lordship. He will be King in another sense when He returns to reign in the new heaven and earth.

[SamMcNear]

I can see Jesus being King from His birth in Mt 2:2 and since John everyone in pressing into the kingdom of God in Lk 16:16. and prior to 70 AD the kingdom Christ conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son in Col 1:13-14.

all this makes sense, I guess the question I would have then is why did Jesus word Lk 21:31 the way He did? "the kingdom is near"? the king James says "nigh at hand"
the Greek for this word is Eggus
Strong's Number: 1451 Original Word Eggus (Phonetic Spelling eng-goos')
Word Origin from a primary verb agcho (to squeeze or throttle; akin to the base of (Strong's # 43))
Definition:
1. near, of place and position
__ 1. near
__ 2. those who are near access to God
____ 1. Jews, as opposed to those who are alien from God and his blessings
____ 2. The Rabbis used the term "to make nigh" as equivalent to "to make a proselyte"
2. of time
__ 1. of times imminent and soon to come pass

Is Jesus talking of something else, like maybe those who haven't converted to Christ yet? Is there something I'm not seeing here? What I'm I missing?

[steve]

Jesus said that the kingdom is like a mustard seed, which speaks of something that begins small, but has a destiny of becoming very great. I believe the "mustard seed" stage described the kingdom at the stage it had attained during Christ's lifetime, whereas we are seeing the "great tree" stage in the modern era, where Christ's kingship is acknowledged by people in every nation on earth.

In the process of growth, a growing seed progresses through various stages—as Jesus suggested by His reference to the plant coming, first, in the blade; later, in the head (or ear); and ultimately to the point of maturity where the grains within the head are ripened. Only after this point of maturity is reached (Jesus said) will the sickle be applied and the harvest brought in (Mark 4:26-29).

These stages seem to tell us of various "thresholds" in development that must be crossed in the process of becoming what the kingdom is destined to become. Whether the kingdom has come in only the "blade" or whether it has come "in the head" or in some other phase, it is correct to speak of each as the "coming" of the kingdom in a new dimension. "Of the increase of His government (kingdom)...there shall be no end" (Isa.9:7).

Thus, depending on context, it would be possible for the kingdom to be said to have "come" in the birth of Jesus—and also to speak of its having "come" into a more advanced stage in His public ministry accompanied by His the casting out of demons—and, yet further, to have "come" to another stage at the coming of the Spirit at Pentecost—and in yet another stage, it "came" in the defeat of the opposition in AD 70—and, later, in another with the defeat of paganism in Rome—and yet other senses in itis penetration to new lands through missionary efforts an in various local revivals—and, eventually, in the second coming of Christ, when He has put all His enemies under His feet and every knee shall bow to Him.

Thus, no matter what stage of development the mustard seed has reached in any Christian's lifetime, it will remain approriate to pray "Your kingdom come!" If this view is correct, it would require us to take each reference to the "coming" of the kingdom in its own context before deciding to what event it is referring.