Alternative Views of Hell

[Guest]

I appreciate the above discussion. One question I would have though is, how does one repent after death? If I understand repentance correctly, it's not simply a sentiment of the heart or change of the mind, but a reversal of the very actions and behaviors a person does as a result. We see an example of this in Zacheus (sorry I don't have my bible with me to give a reference right now) . Jesus declared "salvation has come to this house" only after Zacheus announced his intention to pay back everyone he has wronged. So how does the dead person have an opportunity to change his/her actions?

Christopher,

I think this is an excellent question and worthy to be explored in this discussion. My first thought is that perhaphs we are confusing repentance with restitution. When Zacheus repays what he has stolen he demonstrates his repentance by making restitution. However, repentance can be defined, "Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin." So perhaps in the resurrection one can indeed have remorse or contrition for his past sins.

I think that maybe in my previous posts I should have said that repentance is possible in the resurrection instead of in death; for he that has died in his sins has perished and perhaps cannot repent until he is resurrected.

Todd

[Guest]

Yeah, after I submitted that my last post, I thought of the thief on the cross next to Jesus who had no opportunities to demonstrate repentence (other than rebuking the other guy - Luke 23:40). So my question may not be valid to this discussion. Intent obviously counts for something in repentance.

One thing this thread, and discussions at some of Steve's home meetings has done for me is get me to take a hard look at the traditional eternal torment doctrine. I haven't fully abandoned it yet, but I can say that it's not as clear-cut as it once seemed to be to me. It's funny how many doctrines we tend to accept just because the majority of the mainstream hold it as "orthodox".

In looking at the alternatives, I would like to know what a Universalist does with the perdition passages like:

Phil 1:27-29
27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that from God.
NKJV

1 Tim 6:9-10
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
NKJV

Heb 10:39
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
NKJV

2 Peter 3:7
7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
NKJV

These appear to me to support either the traditional view or the conditional immortality view.

Also, what did Paul mean when he asked the Jews...

Acts 13:46
46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
NKJV

I appreciate any comments.

[Guest]

Christopher,

Here's my understanding on this. I'm sure others can offer more.

The Bible speaks of two groups of people. The first group are Christians who in this life repent and become believers in Christ. The second group would be those who die in their sins. Those who die in their sins perish and "live not again" (Rev 20:5) until the resurrection at the second advent of Christ. Those who are Christians have everlasting life and their spirit goes to be with Christ until the resurrection. At the resurrection the non-christians will go into perdition which simply means to suffer the judgment and wrath of God (which as I have just explained is a temporary condition).

From my study of Christian Universalism I believe this would be consistent with most who adhear to it's doctrine.

Todd

[Guest]

I think the issue comes down to whether scripture says that our eternal destiny is sealed in this life. So when we see words like "destruction" or "perdition" or "repentence" they seem to me to be within this age. When the unbelievers are raised and judged at the lake of fire they are judged by their works. If the only sentence is an eternal punishment of some type then the value of their works which they are judged on does'nt seem very important , does it? Yet God takes the time to tell us that unbelievers are judged by their works and ALL OF THEM are thrown into the lake of fire. But Jesus said some are beaten with few stripes and some with many stripes. What can that mean if eternal punishment is all there is? In Matt 5.26 Jesus said we "won't get out of prison until we have paid the last penny" and i don't think he is referring to an earthly prison. Yet after the unbelievers are in the lake it seems the Bride and Spirit still can offer salvation and the gates to the holy city are still open. I don't think it's likely that the gates are open for people to leave but rather to come in after they have paid the last penny.

[Guest]

Those are very good answers. However, when I look at the greek word for perdition, I have a hard time seeing any valid argument for a temporary condition. I am very ignorant of the greek language so I have to depend on the lexicons to show me what the words mean.

NT:684
apoleia (ap-o'-li-a); from a presumed derivative of NT:622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):

KJV - damnable (-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.

NT:622
apollumi (ap-ol'-loo-mee); from NT:575 and the base of NT:3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:

KJV - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

NT:575
apo (apo'); a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative):

KJV - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.

NT:3639
olethros (ol'-eth-ros); from a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:

KJV - destruction.


Steve7150 wrote:

In Matt 5.26 Jesus said we "won't get out of prison until we have paid the last penny" and i don't think he is referring to an earthly prison

I don't think this has to mean that there is the possibility of paying every "penny" that is owed God, but could be seen as hyperbole meaning that the debt is so great, you will never get out. Kind of like the phrase "when hell freezes over" or "when pigs fly". We don't expect that these will someday happen, it only underscores the impossibility of something.


Steve7150 wrote:

Yet after the unbelievers are in the lake it seems the Bride and Spirit still can offer salvation and the gates to the holy city are still open. I don't think it's likely that the gates are open for people to leave but rather to come in after they have paid the last penny.

I've seen this idea come up a few times in this forum of the invitation still going out after all is said and done. However, I don't think we need to see this part of the book of Revelation to be chronologically tied to the main body of the prophesy. This seems to be the epilogue of the letter John is writing and an exhortation to people reading it rather than an invitation to those in the lake of fire. That's the way I see it anyway.

God bless.

[Guest]

Christopher,

Perhaps we should look at the lake of fire or perdition in that the evil works of men are burned up and consumed forever. The fires are described as everlasting because sin is destroyed completely.

2 Pet 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Here Peter says that it is the works that are burned up. Look also at this verse from Malachi.

Mal 3:1-4
1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty. 2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.

Here the Lord is described as a refiner. Perhaps it will be that way also in Perdition. The Universalist would say that it is so.

Todd

[Guest]

Chris, All these references to destruction are for this age IMO because Jesus says "ALL who are in graves will be raised" John 5.29 so even humpty dumpty will be put back together and face judgement. In Ezezkial 16.55 it says even Sodom and Gemorrah will be raised even though they were destroyed. And there is really no word in scripture for eternal because the greek word "aion" means age or age abiding even though it's translated as eternal.
Romans 8.19 "For the anxious longing of the CREATION waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the CREATION was subjected to futility ,NOT WILLINGLY, but because OF HIM who subjected it , IN HOPE, that the creation itself also WILL BE SET FREE from it's slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God."
It seems that God has a plan for all of his creation not a tiny remnant and Paul says that the creation has "anxious longing" for the revealing of the sons of God to free it. If 95% of humanity was going to be eternally tormented in hell why would it have "anxious longing?"

[Guest]

Here is another interesting scripture from Zephaniah.

Zeph 3:8-9
8 Therefore wait for me," declares the LORD, "for the day I will stand up to testify. I have decided to assemble the nations, to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them— all my fierce anger. The whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. 9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD and serve him shoulder to shoulder.

In verse 8 he says the whole world will be consumed by the fire of his anger. Then, the next verse he says he will purify them so that they may serve him.

Todd

[Guest]

Thank you both for your answers. It doesn't quite make the case for me, but its definitely something cogitate on. I'm a slow learner, but I like to be sure about something before I change my beliefs. If I ever get to universalism, I think it would have to be by way of conditional immortality, which at this point makes more and more sense the more I study and think about it. But greater minds than mine have tackled this issue and I think there are good arguments on all sides. Good thing it's not a salvation issue.

From a merely human standpoint, I've always had a problem with eternal torment simply because it's hard to imagine that God would arrange it so He was forever pouring out His love on one end of the universe while simultaneously pouring out His wrath on the other side. I don't see how He would take pleasure in it. It seems that He'd want to just have it done with once and for all at some point.

One of the main problems I see in Universalism is that it seems to be similar to Calvinism in that it violates the free will of the individual (only on the opposite end of the spectrum). If a person wants nothing to do with God in this life, it hardly seems that anything would convince them to want to spend eternity with Him. The scripture seems to indicate that God does everything He can in this life to call people to Him (Isa 5:4, Acts 17:26-31). But like I said, that's merely my human reasoning. I don't pretend to know the ways nor the mind of God.

Anyway, thanks again for the discussion. It has been very fruitful for me.

God bless.

[Guest]

Chris, Thanks for your reasoned responses because many people get emotional over this issue. I just want to clarify that i'm not a universalist because i believe people have the opportunity to repent and pay for their sins in the lake of fire but i also believe we have the freewill to reject God even to the end. But i believe the possibility of universalism exists and when we consider Paul's freewill when he saw the risen Christ , remember how long it took Paul to change his mind. And Paul called himself the "chief of sinners." So is this expression nothing more then false humility or was it inspired by the Holy Spirit to tell us something.