Fully predestinated, called, and justified???

[Mellontes]

Are today's Christians (no other group or comparison allowed):

1) Fully 100% predestinated
2) Fully 100% called
3) Fully 100% justified

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified...

I am looking for "yes" or "No" answers only. If you believe only some of the three are fully in place right now, then please indicate which ones. You might be surprised as to some of the answers that might be given. I hope we can get a good-sized sample group of respondents.

Thanks!

[steve]

I have to say that I don't understand the question. Is there, in your mind, a difference between today's Christians and those of some other period, with respect to these particular privileges?

Also, are "predestined," and "called" and "justified" words that exist in degrees or percentages? I can't see how they could.

It is a strangely worded question, but as it stands, my answer would have to be "yes."

[Michelle]

yes

[look2jesus]

Yes.

[Mellontes]

Steve, Michelle, Look2Jesus (I like that nickname!)

I have to 100% AGREE with you folks.

Secondarily, the reason I asked is if those things have FULLY taken place in us today, then why do you look for more redemption (i.e. redemption of a physical body)?

But here is the cruncher...I'll need to finish Romans 8:30 because the end of that passage is normally not considered to be fully in place as the other attributes were.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

WE ARE ALREADY GLORIFIED ON THE SAME, EXACT BASIS, yet most believe they are still hoping to be glorified (somehow) in a physically resurrected body. The difficulty resides for those who are inclined to believe that way is that we are ALREADY members of that glorified body which is Christ! The emphasis is not on the physical...

I have said this before in an earlier post but I believe it is just as apt in this context as well...

Romans 6:5 - For if we HAVE BEEN PLANTED [past tense] together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The likeness of His death is compared to the likeness of the resurrection.

Notice that the same planting (past tense) is applied to the 1st century Christian. Now, if this planting refers to PHYSICAL death, then so also would be the likeness of our resurrection. But the very fact that the same planting is viewed as PAST TENSE (for presently alive people) completely removes the idea that physical resurrection for Christians is the focus!

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That is the resurrection from death that we receive and we receive it while already being a living, breathing human being...

[Michelle]

Steve, Michelle, Look2Jesus (I like that nickname!)

I have to 100% AGREE with you folks.

How lovely!

Secondarily, the reason I asked is if those things have FULLY taken place in us today, then why do you look for more redemption (i.e. redemption of a physical body)?

Why not? The bible talks about the resurrection of the dead, why shouldn't I look forward to it? Is this list from Romans 8 the exhaustive list of things God is doing?

But here is the cruncher...I'll need to finish Romans 8:30 because the end of that passage is normally not considered to be fully in place as the other attributes were.

Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Oh, look, no it's not. Now that you've printed the whole verse (with bolded, underlined, and supersize font, no less) is this the exhaustive list?

WE ARE ALREADY GLORIFIED ON THE SAME, EXACT BASIS, yet most believe they are still hoping to be glorified (somehow) in a physically resurrected body.

Erm, not me. I believe we are glorified in Christ, but we are going to be resurrected in a physical body. I don't equate the two as the same thing, but you seem to assume that people who don't agree with you do.

The difficulty resides for those who are inclined to believe that way is that we are ALREADY members of that glorified body which is Christ! The emphasis is not on the physical...

Right, but does it exclude a physical resurrection? I don't see how.

I have said this before in an earlier post but I believe it is just as apt in this context as well...

Romans 6:5 - For if we HAVE BEEN PLANTED [past tense] together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The likeness of His death is compared to the likeness of the resurrection.

Notice that the same planting (past tense) is applied to the 1st century Christian. Now, if this planting refers to PHYSICAL death, then so also would be the likeness of our resurrection. But the very fact that the same planting is viewed as PAST TENSE (for presently alive people) completely removes the idea that physical resurrection for Christians is the focus!

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That is the resurrection from death that we receive and we receive it while already being a living, breathing human being...

Okay, so you believe there's no resurrection of the body; this world is it, and then some kind of spirit existence as part of Christ's body. So what? How has this belief changed your life?

[look2jesus]

Hello Mellontes,

Secondarily, the reason I asked is if those things have FULLY taken place in us today, then why do you look for more redemption (i.e. redemption of a physical body)?

As to our glorification, I see the sense in which it can be said that we have been glorified, is because we are presently joined to the body of Christ, and since we're a part of His body (which has already been glorified), it can be rightly said that we have been glorified. But, to tell you the truth, I think Paul is rather intimating to us in vs. 30 that the certainty of glorification for those who have been foreknown, predestined, and called, is such that he can include it in his statement using the past tense, though, in reality, it will occur in the future. So it depends on what you mean by "glorified". Within the same context Paul writes,

The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. Rom. 8:16-18

I don't know about you but, to me, it seems that Paul is speaking of something that will occur even future to our time, when he writes further,

For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Rom. 8:19-25

WE ARE ALREADY GLORIFIED ON THE SAME, EXACT BASIS, yet most believe they are still hoping to be glorified (somehow) in a physically resurrected body. The difficulty resides for those who are inclined to believe that way is that we are ALREADY members of that glorified body which is Christ! The emphasis is not on the physical...

In verse 23, I think Paul's emphasis is on the physical when he writes,

...even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

Romans 6:5 - For if we HAVE BEEN PLANTED [past tense] together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The likeness of His death is compared to the likeness of the resurrection.

Notice that the same planting (past tense) is applied to the 1st century Christian. Now, if this planting refers to PHYSICAL death, then so also would be the likeness of our resurrection. But the very fact that the same planting is viewed as PAST TENSE (for presently alive people) completely removes the idea that physical resurrection for Christians is the focus!

This is true in the context of Rom. 6. Paul is comparing resurrection, in that place, to our new life in Christ in which we ought to walk in righteousness. He isn't even addressing eschatology in this place.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Rom. 6:13

John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

That is the resurrection from death that we receive and we receive it while already being a living, breathing human being...

I certainly agree with you here.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28

This is the resurrection from death that we receive and we receive it after we have died, when we are no longer breathing...

[Mellontes]

"Yes," "Yes," Yes," to a fulfilled predestination, calling and justification, but "NO" to glorification...Paul doesn't change mid-stream in Romans 8:30...

And why is it that when an attempt is made to explain the resurrection as not being physical, the retort is similar to "So, this life is all there is" etc? No one is saying that. Certainly not me. The Bible does not say what our life after death will be like. But Christians already have this eternal life. I doubt we could possibly even understand the after life. Do you really believe there are literal streets of gold and literal physical mansions? If you do, then there will be no point trying to persuade otherwise. The whole point of the post was to show the difference in the present glorified body of Christ and how we are made members of it at salvation while living VERSUS the future view that we get this glorified body of some sort after death. Redemption is fully complete at salvation for present-day Christianity. What else does Jesus Christ need to redeem you from? Was Jesus Christ in his physical body when he was raised from hell (realm of the dead) according to Acts 2:27 and Acts 2:31 or was Jesus Christ in His limp body in Joseph of Arithamaea's tomb? The death Christ suffered was separation from God (Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani - Matthew 27:46), the same death that Adam suffered in the garden - separation from God (out of covenant). We are brought back into covenant with God through the mediator Jesus Christ. It has nothing to do with physical death.

The pattern of the resurrection is clearly defined in Romans 6:5...

Romans 6:5 - For if we HAVE BEEN PLANTED [past tense] together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

If living saints have already been planted in the likeness of His death, it cannot be a physical resurrection, yet this is what people have come to believe. 30AD to 70AD was so different than it is now. They were waiting for their completed redemption at the parousia of Jesus Christ. We don't wait for that event anymore...

How would it have been possible for Hymanaeus and Philetus to have overthrown the faith of ANYONE if there was to be a PHYSICAL resurrection. They distinctly said the resurrection was PAST. Paul never challenged them on the NATUREof the resurrection because it is not physical. He did, however, challenge them on the TIMING, much the same way I have been trying for well over a year to do here.

Anyway, consider the horse severly flogged...

[look2jesus]

Hey Mellontes,

Perhaps you could address my post, point by point, as I did yours...that way, I may be able to see any weakness in my present understanding. I don't know what to say to your last post. There are statements made there that I could address but I think it would be more orderly if we were to respond to each other point by point. Thanks.

l2j

[Homer]

Hi Melontes,

Count me also as "yes" to all three.

Earlier you wrote:

Romans 6:5 - For if we HAVE BEEN PLANTED [past tense] together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

The likeness of His death is compared to the likeness of the resurrection.

Notice that the same planting (past tense) is applied to the 1st century Christian. Now, if this planting refers to PHYSICAL death, then so also would be the likeness of our resurrection. But the very fact that the same planting is viewed as PAST TENSE (for presently alive people) completely removes the idea that physical resurrection for Christians is the focus!

Brother, you have been handicapped by an error from the beginning of your argument. Look at the context. Read the whole chapter. It is about dying (symbolically) to our old life in baptism and being raised (out of the baptismal water) to walk in a new life, no longer slaves of sin. What does Paul's argument have to do with an actual, physical resurrection from the dead that is yet future for the saints?

Blessings, Homer