1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

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TK
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1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

Post by TK » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:51 am

..and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve. 1 Cor. 15:4-5
A friend of mine brought up the above verse last night and he mentioned something I had never previously "caught." Paul talks about Jesus being seen by "the twelve" post resurrection, but at that time Judas could not have been included in the twelve and it appears that Matthias was not chosen to replace Judas until after the ascenscion (Acts 1). So it does not seem that Matthias could legitimately be called part of "the twelve" by Paul- at least when discussing post-resurrection appearances. Matthias likely saw the resurrected Lord before he was made part of "the twelve."

I am not trying to make a big deal out of this nor do I believe this is a significant thing. I am just curious. Was this a "slip of the pen" by Paul, or something else?

TK

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Michelle
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

Post by Michelle » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:21 am

My guess is that "The Twelve" became the title for that special, chosen group of Jesus' disciples, whether or not all twelve were present or, in this case, all still alive. They are called "the twelve" all through the gospels. In John 20:24, Thomas is called "one of the Twelve" after Judas' suicide as well. I believe Paul was just giving a very convincing argument about a widening circle of witnesses to the resurrection, not an exact census about who saw the risen Lord.

I think it's kind of like how the employees at work are called 'the staff.' If I reported that the superintendent appeared before the staff, it would be a little pedantic to add, "Well, except for Mr. Jones, who was sick that day, and Mrs. Smith, who is out on maternity leave," especially if the emphasis was on the fact that the superintendent did, in fact, appear.
Last edited by Michelle on Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Candlepower
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

Post by Candlepower » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:33 am

TK,

You come up with such good points of discussion.

It could have been a slip of Paul's pen, but perhaps there is another solution to the problem you presented. First, I think Paul deserves the benefit of the doubt. Probably he was too astute to have forgotten that Judas had died and had not witnessed the resurrected Christ. Matthias, however, though he was not an Apostle until after the ascension, had witnessed the resurrected Jesus, as Paul knew. When Paul wrote I Cor. 15:4-5, I think "The twelve" referred to the twelve Apostles at the time of Paul's writing, even though one of them was not an Apostle (only a witness) at the time of the resurrection. I think Paul was saying that all of the twelve current Apostles actually witnessed the resurrected Christ.

Here's what I think might be an illustration. If I said, "The United states defeated Germany in WWII," would that be true? Well, it would, and it wouldn't. It would depend on what I meant by the U.S. If I meant the U.S. as constituted in 1945, then my statement would be true. But if I meant the U.S. as presently constituted, it would technically be inaccurate because in 1945 Hawaii and Alaska were not member States in the United States. But by saying that the U.S. won WWII, it is commonly understood that I'm not implying that Hawaii and Alaska were member States in the U.S. in 1945. We understand that when I say U.S., I'm speaking of an entity consisting of a changeable membership. The U.S. was the U.S. with 13 members; it is the U.S. with 50 members. If the South had won the war, the U.S. would have remained, but with a different membership.

In speaking of "The Twelve" in this instance,I think Paul meant the group entity regardless of its membership past or present. All of the Apostles contemporaneous with Paul had see the resurrected Christ, including Matthias. I think that's the essential point Paul was making, as I understand it, even though the way he worded it may have led to some head scratching.

CP

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Michelle
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

Post by Michelle » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:11 pm

TK wrote:I am not trying to make a big deal out of this nor do I believe this is a significant thing. I am just curious.
I'm hoping that I'm not making a big deal out of this as well, but if the group must number 12 and therefore has to include Matthias, why is Peter mentioned separately?

SteveF

Re: 1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

Post by SteveF » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:11 pm

If I said, "The United states defeated Germany in WWII," would that be true?
Sort of but not entirely true. There were many other countries involved in the war. Sometimes in team sports we might say an individual beat another team by hitting a game winning shot or home run. In this instance I would single out the Russians who after penetrating into Germany, took Berlin which immediately lead to the suicide of Hitler and the subsequent surrender of Germany.

Sorry, couldn’t resist. ;)

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mattrose
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

Post by mattrose » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:23 pm

I completely agree with Michelle. I think the term 'The Twelve' took on a life of its own apart from the actual number of people within the group of disciples at a given time. I think the same is true of the NT usage of 'Twelve Tribes.'

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TK
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Re: 1 Cor. 15:5 and "the Twelve"

Post by TK » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:23 pm

Hi Michelle-

I think your explanation makes perfect sense. I did some "googling" and it seems that a lot of people agree with you. Makes sense to me!

I agree, CP, that it is unlikely a slip of the pen.

TK

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