Jesus taking the penalty for our sins

[steve7150]

I think I heard Steve G teach that perhaps when Jesus quoted the opening lines of Ps 22 simply to signal to the onlookers that this prophetic scripture was being fulfilled. He didnt have the strength to recite the entire Psalm.










Yes without a doubt but the Psalm actually says God did forsake him temporarily for at the end of the Psalm it says "You have answered me" 22.21.

[Paidion]

I think that anyone, even a faithful servant of God, (including Jesus who was fully human, although He retained his identity as the Son of God), can become temporarily overcome by an emotion. The New Testament mentions a number of emotions which Jesus had (example: He had "bowels of compassion" toward suffering people). I see no reason why he could not have emotionally felt as if God had forsaken Him. Emotions come and go. But we can make decisions which override emotions. I don't know whether or not Jesus retained this emotion right up to the moment of his death. The records seem to indicate that He died shortly after having uttered these words.

[steve7150]

I see no reason why he could not have emotionally felt as if God had forsaken Him. Emotions come and go. But we can make decisions which override emotions. I don't know whether or not Jesus retained this emotion right up to the moment of his death. The records seem to indicate that He died shortly after having uttered these words.




The thing is that if this were true why would Jesus mistake be limited to this one event? Maybe he was overcome by emotion in thinking he was doing his Father's will or maybe Satan was a product of his emotion or his whole mission was driven by emotion.

[Paidion]

I don't consider an emotion to be a mistake. Even we frail humans often feel a certain condition to be the case, where we know it to be otherwise.

I would like to share with you the third verse of 'Tis Midnight and on Olive's Brow.

'Tis midnight; and for others' guilt
The Man of Sorrows weeps in blood;
Yet He that hath in anguish knelt
Is not forsaken by His God.

[Ralph]

Below are my thoughts in reply to Jarrod’s original post. I realize that I have wandered considerably outside the bounds of his original intent for this topic, but I believe some of what I have written fits inside his bounds.

First, I show three Scripture passages:

Isaiah 53 (RSV):
1 Who has believed what we have heard? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or comeliness that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that made us whole, and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is dumb, so he opened not his mouth. 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? 9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand; 11 he shall see the fruit of the travail of his soul and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous; and he shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Philippians 2 (RSV): 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Hebrews 12 (RSV): 1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, 2 looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

I will describe items that might have weighed heavily on Jesus’ mind (His humanity) as He pondered His impending death.

Jesus knew that He would soon be unable to defend Himself verbally. This would need to be a voluntary restraint. He would soon need to endure all verbal accusations and abuse without defending Himself. He had previously won all debates and He had previously skillfully defended all of His actions.

Jesus knew that He would soon be unable to defend Himself physically. This would need to be a voluntary restraint. He had been protected during His entire lifetime. When He was young, He had been carried by His parents away from every danger through the warnings provided by God to Joseph. As an adult, He had personally walked out of every danger that He had ever faced. No one had ever been able to hurt Him physically. Soon His perfect human body would be mutilated nearly beyond recognition.

Jesus knew that He would soon be emptying Himself of the power He always had available to Him on earth. This would need to be a voluntary restraint. He had stilled the storm, walked on water, fed multitudes, healed the sick, raised the dead, cast out demons. There had been nothing too hard for Him to do.

Jesus knew that many people would soon be rejecting Him. Jesus had taught multitudes. People had flocked to Him and pressed around Him. He had many close friends. Some of His closest followers would soon be deserting Him. One of them would betray Him and one of them would flatly deny knowing Him.

Jesus knew that He would soon voluntarily suffer excruciating torture and die an excruciating death in humiliating nakedness and disgrace, like what He had personally observed perhaps hundreds of times during His lifetime as people hung on Roman crosses lining the roads that He traveled in Palestine.

Jesus knew that He was the Lamb of God to be slain for the sins of the world. But unlike the animal lambs that were slain quickly and mercifully for the sins of the people, His death would be cruel. It might have been the most cruel torture that any human being has ever endured, because Satan might have been personally directing the torture that the soldiers carried out.

Jesus knew that His Father would purposely not save Him from the impending cruel torture and death. In that sense, His father would be purposely abandoning Him. His Father would purposely not be intervening. That had never happened before during His life on earth, and it had never happened before His incarnation. In that sense, Jesus and His Father would be separated --- through abandonment. The close fellowship that Jesus and His Father had enjoyed would be severed. The abandonment would be physical and psychological. Whether there would also be some kind of spiritual abandonment in which the Father would turn His face completely away from His Son, I cannot say. Perhaps Jesus Himself didn’t know that either. Perhaps there was uncertainty in Jesus’ mind regarding the extent of the impending abandonment by His Father. If Jesus was to be taking away the sins of the world, something in the eternal realm would need to happen between the Father and the Son, and I don’t think I am capable of understanding that.

Jesus knew that His own mother and His close friends would watch Him die in naked humiliating disgrace. They would see His tortured, shredded body hanging on the cross. Seeing that would hurt them deeply.

[Paidion]

Ralph, if Jesus knew everything about His impending death, then the basic question of the original post still stands. Why the big deal?
I tried to show that Jesus mistakenly felt that the Father had forsaken Him. This was the big deal. He suffered from that deep emotion more all of His unspeakable physical suffering. For Jesus, nothing worse could take place than the Father forsaking Him. He had prayed, "Father if it is possible, let this cup [of suffering] pass from me; nevertheless not my will but yours be done." Jesus placed everything in His Father's hands according to His Father's will, and yet being fully human, our Lord, like any one of us humans, still cherished that hope that at the last moment His Father would deliver Him from it all. But when the Father didn't do so, He cried out in agony of soul, "Eloi sabachthani?” If the Father actually had forsaken Him, and if He knew it all along, why the agonizing cry? Why did He not calmly say, "Father it hurts me that you have forsaken me, but I praise You that everything is going exactly according to plan!"