Barclay was convinced (UR)

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steve
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by steve » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:55 am

Here is my response to William Lane Craig's "Can a Loving God Send People to Hell?" (posted link above):

I first became aware of William Lane Craig about 15 years or so ago, wen he debated an Atheist at Willow Creek Church, in Illinois. Since he is a brilliant Christian philosopher, he easily demolished the poorly-matched atheist who took him on. I came to be an admirer of Craig, after watching that debate. However, Craig is, of course, not a Bible expert, but a philosopher—and he argues like one.

Though the argument of the article is intended to affirm that a loving God can indeed send people to a hell of eternal torment, Craig follows the policy of almost every defender of the doctrine, by stating his own distaste for it:
"No Christian likes the doctrine of hell. I truly wish with all my heart that universal salvation were true."
This seems to be saying, even though I am telling you that this doctrine is consistent with our God being a God of love, I can not bring myself to like it. This means either that I am lacking in the very love that God exhibits in frying the lost eternally, or else "love" does not mean the same thing when we are talking about God's love as when we are talking about a Christian's love. Since the Christian's love is supposed to be the same as God's, this is a disturbing admission to hear from every advocate of this bizarre doctrine.

The article is comprised of 28 paragraphs. The first 14 are devoted to presenting an evangelistic message, and the last 14 present his philosophical case for eternal torment. Of course, he presented many scriptures in the first 14 paragraphs, which did not deal with hell, but with points related to the gospel. When he turned to his discussion of hell, no further scriptures were presented. There was a quote from Sartre (who was a fanatical atheist) to support the notion that "the door to hell is locked on the inside." Why he chose to quote an atheist on this point, when he could have as easily quoted the Christian philosopher, C.S. Lewis, saying exactly the same thing, is a curiosity—unless, perhaps, he was writing to persuade non-Christians, rather than Christians. In any case, I find it ironic that Homer would object to TK's quoting John Stuart Mill, and would then commend an article that defends a point by quoting the Marxist, Jean-Paul Sartre.

I also find it curious that Homer would like such an article, which defended the traditional view without appeal to one scripture, but only philosophical arguments, after so often charging universalists (who have scores of scriptures as the basis for their belief) with leaning on philosophical arguments, rather than scripture.

Because this link was posted as an exceptionally good defense of traditionalism, and because it was by William Lane Craig, whom I consider to be very smart, I was expecting much more from the article than what was delivered. He did not make one point anywhere in the article that I did not regularly make in defending hell when I was in my teens and twenties. It was elementary stuff. When I started teaching my "Foundations" series for YWAM, in 1982, my notes included every one of Craig's arguments for eternal torment (in my lecture on "eternal judgment").

In those days, I was making the same mistakes that Craig makes in his article: 1) assuming, without adequate attention to exegesis, that the traditional view of hell is scriptural; and 2) presenting a false dichotomy—namely, that God must either damn sinners to eternal torment, or else deprive them of free choice. Of course, the excluded middle here is the third option, namely, that God might continue to give sinners the same option of free choice after death, as well as before. It would at least be an option, if God wished to be generous!

Those who most strongly defend the reality of human free will, generally, do not seem to consider that such free will is an innately human trait. They think it belongs to people temporarily (only during this life). They do not believe that humans still possess this trait, as part of the very definition of their being human, after death.

Of course, if their argument was that there is no free will after death because death brings annihilation, then this inconsistency would not arise. However, traditionalists believe that humans live forever after death, but apparently not as humans (what specie, then?). They believe that, during life, free will is so defining of personhood that it alone determines whatever consequences one deserves to receive for eternity. However, when sinners have died, they apparently no longer have this central human characteristic. They can no longer choose God or repent. Where theologians get this idea, or why they think we should believe them when they teach it, baffles me, since nothing in scripture can be said to support it.

Having left us with this false dichotomy, Craig writes:
Thus God finds himself in a kind of dilemma. On the one hand are His justice and holiness, which demand punishment for sin, rightly deserved. On the other hand are God's love and mercy, which demand reconciliation and forgiveness. Both are essential to His nature; neither can be compromised. What is God to do in this dilemma?
What is left-out as an option (one that God would certainly have thought of, rather than foolishly painting Himself into a corner) is that God might punish sinners with perfectly just judgment, and afterward show mercy to any who at any time may become penitent. That would be a win-win for God and for the sinners He loves and desires to save. Nothing is compromised. God does what He must do, and gets what He wants, as well.

To insist that God must punish people eternally is to imply one of three things: 1) either God is not as smart as we are, and could not figure out this solution, or 2) He could have adopted this solution, but did not do so because He really would be happier to torture people forever, or 3) even though God requires us to forgive all of our enemies, He has not the option open to Him of acting the way He commands us to behave—and cannot forgive His enemies. Since we were His enemies, and He forgave us, this seems to eliminate this third option. Which of the remaining two alternatives does the traditionalist prefer to live with?

I would prefer to live with the scriptures—something Craig does not do in his article. None of his arguments defending eternal torment can be found stated or implied in any passage of the Bible. Let me list his arguments. I will leave it to Homer and others to attach the scriptures upon which they think these points can be said to be supported.

Craig begins his consideration with the following analysis:
It seems to me that the detractor of hell is making two crucial assumptions. First of all, he assumes that if God is all powerful, then God can create a world in which everyone freely chooses to give his life to God and is saved. And second, he assumes that if God is all loving, then God prefers a world in which everyone freely chooses to give his life to God and be saved. Since God is thus both willing and able to create a world in which everyone is freely saved, it follows that no one goes to hell.
Of course, neither of these assumptions need to exist in calling into question the doctrine of eternal torment (which Craig equates with the doctrine of "hell"). The only assumptions that the detractor needs to make are that the scriptures do not teach any such doctrine, and that such a doctrine contradicts the things that the scriptures really do teach.

Craig makes the obligatory disclaimer:
God doesn't send anybody to hell. His desire is that everyone be saved, and He pleads with people to come to Him. But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell--but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.
Yet this ignores the fact that, while God may not make the decision who will or will not ultimately go to hell, it is God alone who has determined what hell is, and what will happen to people who find themselves there. Thus, the experience of hell must reflect exactly what God intended for a man to experience, if he is guilty of spending his momentary earthly sojourn in ignorance of or rebellion against God.

Craig argues:
The only obstacle to universal salvation is therefore human free will. It's logically impossible to make someone freely do something.
But it is not logically impossible for God to give fools endless opportunities to freely do the right thing. If God is the impatient sort, He might prefer to cut off opportunities before He is forced to do so, but there is nothing logically requiring Him to place an arbitrary limit at death.

In arguing that a loving God would not necessarily be expected to prefer a world in which all people would be saved, Craig writes:
It seems to me that God's being all-loving would at the very most require Him to create a world having an optimal balance between saved and lost, a world where as many as possible freely accept salvation and as few as possible freely reject it.
The merits of this statement may be debated on logical grounds, but what cannot be done is provide any scripture in its support.

The article winds down with three arguments (all philosophical, none scriptural) why eternal torment for temporal sins is not necessarily a violation of justice. The first of these goes like this:
1) The objection equivocates between every sin which we commit and all the sins which we commit. We can agree that every individual sin which a person commits deserves only a finite punishment. But it doesn't follow from this that all of a person's sins taken together as a whole deserve only a finite punishment. If a person commits an infinite number of sins, then the sum total of all such sins deserves infinite punishment. Now, of course, nobody commits an infinite number of sins in the earthly life. But what about in the afterlife? Insofar as the inhabitants of hell continue to hate God and reject Him, they continue to sin and so accrue to themselves more guilt and more punishment. In a real sense, then, hell is self-perpetuating. In such a case, every sin has a finite punishment, but because sinning goes on forever, so does the punishment.
This makes sense, philosophically. but scripturally, where do we find that "the inhabitants of hell continue to hate God and reject Him" or that "they continue to sin and so accrue to themselves more guilt and more punishment." It is not a foregone conclusion that men in hell would never change their minds. Logic and experience provide no indication that this can be predicted. Nor does the scripture provide any support at all for the notion. So why should anyone believe it to be true?

Craig's second argument for the justice of eternal torment is as follows:
2) Why think that every sin does have only a finite punishment? We could agree that sins like theft, lying, adultery, and so forth, are only of finite consequence and so only deserve a finite punishment. But, in a sense, these sins are not what serves to separate someone from God. For Christ has died for those sins. The penalty for those sins has been paid. One has only to accept Christ as Savior to be completely free and clean of those sins. But the refusal to accept Christ and his sacrifice seems to be a sin of a different order altogether. For this sin decisively separates one from God and His salvation. To reject Christ is to reject God Himself. And this is a sin of infinite gravity and proportion and therefore deserves infinite punishment. We ought not, therefore, to think of hell primarily as punishment for the array of sins of finite consequence which we have committed, but as the just due for a sin of infinite consequence, namely the rejection of God Himself.
It is very common for defenders of tradition to argue: "a sin of infinite gravity and proportion...deserves infinite punishment." People who otherwise are desperately looking for ways to justify such disproportionate punishment (as would be condemned in God's perfectly-just law) may be inclined to turn off their reasoning long enough to give this concept a pass. However, not only does the scripture nowhere approve this strange ethic, but the Bible flatly disallows it.

If sinning against God is an offense deserving infinite punishment, then every sin deserves infinite punishment—since every sin is against the same God. Yet the Bible clearly indicates that justice requires different penalties for different sins—e.g., steal a lamb, repay four lambs; steal an ox, repay five oxen; steal a wife, get stoned to death! Furthermore, Jesus plainly teaches that, even in the judgment, penalties of the lost will not all be equal (Matt.11:22, 24/Luke 12:47-48). This means that, even though all sins are against the infinite God, not all deserve the same punishment. This conclusively disproves the old canard that the magnitude of the sin is determined by the magnitude of the one sinned against. The penalty for murder, in the law, was the same whether the victim was a pauper or a king.

Craig's final argument for the justness of eternal torment is similar to his first:
3) Finally, it's possible that God would permit the damned to leave hell and go to heaven but that they freely refuse to do so. It is possible that persons in hell grow only more implacable in their hatred of God as time goes on. Rather than repent and ask God for forgiveness, they continue to curse Him and reject Him. God thus has no choice but to leave them where they are. In such a case, the door to hell is locked, as John Paul Sartre said, from the inside. The damned thus choose eternal separation from God. So, again, so as long as any of these scenarios is even possible, it invalidates the objection that God's perfect justice is incompatible with everlasting separation from God.
This is little more than a restatement of the first argument in the series. The idea in both is, since the lost in hell continue to sin forever, their punishment properly must last forever. However, this is begging the question of whether sinners will in fact remain unrepentant in hell. Why would anyone assume this to be the case? The above paragraph depends on premises that are twice introduced with "it is possible..." I actually don't know that it is possible for a sinner to resist God's inducements forever. Again, the apparent assumption is that, after death, humans are no longer humans. There is no scripture that has ever come to my attention that affirms such a counterintuitive idea.

William Lane Craig's article was advertised by psimmond (above) as being "the best article I've read defending the traditional view." I think this may be true. I have read multiple book-length defenses of the traditional view, and they do not have much better arguments than Craig's article has, though they spend more time discussing actual texts of scripture than Craig did. Since this is so, I hope the reader can see why it is that I have been forced by biblical research to abandon the traditional view as a thing impossible of scriptural support and unworthy of the God who manifested Himself in Jesus Christ.

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jriccitelli
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:55 am

Matt I am not talking about the eternality of hell, I am talking about;
“But why does He wait until they die? Could He not save them now just as well? And on what basis are they saved post-mortem? No one can say” (Your post, Matt post Nov 16)
So I don’t understand why ‘eternal’ hell becomes part of my argument since I believe God punishes 'then' annihilates.

Michelle, I would of added more to my posts but they are long enough already. The ‘brothers’ verse I feel speaks of works and forgiveness among those who are ‘His’, note that these were His ‘sons’ and they were all ‘brothers’.
So to take this one verse and discount the hundreds of verses that teach of judgment for those who are not His sons would be my point. Good question though. My question would be of bible believers and teachers that would be perplexed over God not having any punishment for the unbeliever and sinner.

Like TK has pointed out, we could meet God one day and find out He has been putting us all on, He’s been pulling our leg, that God really doesn’t plan to keep His Word, plausible, yes, sure it could happen, and I tell unbelievers this too, but I use that as an angle to say “look, the bible is Gods Word, it can be demonstrated as true, and it is the only trustworthy hope God has given us.”
What lesson am I afraid that UR would teach those of us who really love God?
That God will not keep His Word.

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Homer
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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by Homer » Sat Nov 26, 2011 11:57 am

Steve,

I have started (barely) going through your list of purported scriptural support for universalism; it will take some time to give a fair evaluation of each.

As you must know I do not hold the "traditional" view of hell, that the persons who are condemned are continually roasted in fire forever. I see this as figurative language. There is as much, if not more, support for being cast into "outer darkness" which I believe means total separation from God. Having said that, I think annihilation has about equal support in the scripture a\nd am undecided between the two. What I am convinced of is that there is a final judgement at the rtesurrection with no chance for a "do-over".

Rather than proving the universalist case we have gotten side-tracked into a discussion of how awful the "traditional" view is and how awful those who believe it must be in their ignorance. So we have a strawman with a not so thinly veiled ad hominem thrown in. As in item #1 of Hedges rules of controversy which I posted, we need to have a clear understanding of what is at issue. The issue that I believe we need to discuss first is this: is universalism true or false, then other issues.

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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by TK » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:23 pm

Hi Homer--

I certainly don't think that people who hold the traditional view are horrible people, as that would include every Christian I personally know, including my wife and all my family.

Those of us who believe (or hope as I do) that UR is true do so because we think that this best squares with how God is revealed in scripture (that He is good --all the time, and that He is Love personified perfectly). I honestly never even heard of UR until a few years ago and from this forum, and I never really considered the ramifications of the traditional view as it pertains to God's character. I am thankful that I have been forced to consider this issue.

If the traditional view is correct-- and i mean the eternal physical torment with no hope of escape-- then it is very difficult to say that that end result is "good" especially since God set up the system that led to this result in the first place. That is why I think John Stuart Mill's quote has some bearing-- if the traditional ET version is true, then calling something good when it really isn't is just being dishonest. It kind of reminds me of the story of the Emperor's New Clothes. Like Steve indicated, this doesn't mean we should still not worship God all the same. It just means that it is not a good thing just because God does it. We just have to call it something else, although I am at a loss to say what. "Requred" may be the best term but this too falls miserably short.

TK

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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:26 pm

“This does indeed seem to be the unavoidable result of taking this doctrine to its logical conclusion. I think that taking an idea to its logical conclusion is an important method of testing its sanity” (Steve)
“I think one difference in the assumptions you and I are making is in the audience we are addressing” (Steve)

That’s why I feel I am addressing this from a ‘philosophical’ view. I am disagreeing with using some bible passages to support it, the same way I would disagree with Calvinists. Yet Calvinism is not so dangerous a belief as I feel UR is, so I feel it is beneficial to warn people of the dangers of ‘believing’ the doctrine. I can talk of the implications of ‘Karma’ but I know you would have concern when people start believing it’s true.
It is my (our) job to make disciples for Jesus, and to show them why other gods cannot be true, and using reason if necessary.
“You may … consider Paul's treatment of those misconceptions” (Steve)

Thus, any verses in support of the specific doctrine of eternal torment …would have to be somewhat specific” (Steve)
I can only think that you are thinking I am arguing for eternal hell, someone else may be, but I am not.


(I hold that God punishes sinners, then He destroys or eventually annihilates sinners, this seems biblical and well supported. I agree the worm and fire may be eternal but not the punishment. I am not talking about the 'length' of punishment or even its 'kind')
'I am' debating whether 'all' and 'every' person will be saved, and or if God gives a second oppourtunity biblically. And whether any, or who will endure some punishment, long or short. Many stripes, or few stripes.

"slim" support for a doctrine contrary to their own, when no more than four verses can be put forward in favor of their own terrible doctrine. I hope we will not become side-tracked and forget what it is we are looking for here” (Steve)
I never said anything about ‘eternal’.
So I thought this thread was on ‘post-mortem chastisement and reconciliation’. Or, a second or universal opportunity to ‘accept’, or believe in ‘Christ’s’ atonement.
If we were to list all the verses on the 'punishment' of sinners I think I would have to post the entire bible.Much to the disgruntlement of Universalists. Conditional immortality, or not.

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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:38 pm

Homer never called traditionalists horrible, did he, where did he say that?
I do not see why the 'eternal' hell view seems to be a straw man continually set up against the universalist idea of 'no' hell and 'no' (or little?) punishment, and against the posy mortem second chance doctrine??

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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by steve » Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:04 pm

I agree that conditional immortality has a good scriptural case. My objection is not to that view. My objection throughout this thread has been to two things:

1) the belief that the traditional view has a strong scriptural case, and
2) the suggestion that universal reconciliation has a weak scriptural case.

It is my contention that anyone who believes the first of these propositions has not done a sufficiently critical analysis of the case that is presented for it, nor critically sought to find the total list of biblical texts that could even remotely provide the foundation for it. As I said earlier, I am talking about texts which, if one were to come to the Bible with zero presuppositions, would give them the impression that the lost will be tormented eternally. Since verses about "outer darkness" and "weeping and gnashing of teeth" do not make the slightest reference to the duration of these agonies, it would not occur to the raw student that they are intended to last forever—nor, perhaps, that they were even necessarily otherworldly. The uninitiated student would find three or four verses that (understood one of several possible ways) would suggest eternal torment. Only these three or four verses could provide a "foundation" for the traditional view. Others would then have to be read through the light of the assumptions drawn from these few verses.

By contrast, most people reading the Old Testament (and many passages in the New), if they had no prior prejudices, would certainly reach the conclusions of conditional immortality. They would find, dozens of times in scripture, that the fate of the lost is "death." Without the conjuring of meanings and special pleading of traditional theologians, who wish to reinterpret the word "death" to mean "separation" (without any lexical basis that I can find), and then to harmonize it with the eternal torment view, most readers would believe that "death" means the opposite of life, and would think of it as the state of having no living existence. They would think that God was correct when He said, "You shall surely die," and that Satan was lying when he said, "You shall not die." There seems to be overwhelming evidence for conditional immortality, but only four verses for the traditional view.

It is hard to know how many people, coming to the New Testament without any presuppositions about hell, would come away believing in universal reconciliation. They certainly would encounter statements that sound like they affirm it about ten times as often as they would find those that seem to affirm eternal torment. The person who would come away believing that God will eventually save everyone, by hook or by crook, would have much to go on. Anyone who says that the universalist can produce only a "slim" scriptural case is certainly revealing the degree to which dozens of verses of scripture can be read without being seen when we have on certain blinders. If the person saying this happened to hold to the traditional view, the criticism would reveal that he is not too picky about criticizing a view with massive scriptural support, while himself holding a view that no more than four verses in the Bible can even be pretended to support.

The universalist would have something else on his side that would not incline so much toward the other two views—viz. , the biblical revelation of the character of God. The unbiased reader would find again and again that God brings temporal judgments (death) upon sinners, throughout the Old and the New Testament, but would also find that, in both testaments, God is appealing to sinners to repent, affirming His concern that they should not have to be killed, and, in many places, proclaiming that He loves even His enemies and wishes for their salvation.

This hypothetical reader would then have to consider whether God is limited in His options. Is God not allowed to give people as many chances as they may require, in order to come to the place to which He has passionately desired for them to come? Are God's hands tied in this respect? If so, by whom? While we may justly speak of the free will of man "tying God's hands," in terms of God getting man's cooperation within a certain timeframe, yet the traditional view gives man even the power to tell God how many chances He is allowed or not allowed to give a man who is not yet getting it right. The Bible never attributes such powers to man.

I have not intended any insult to all of those who hold the traditional view, as a couple of the above posts claim. I have accused those who hold this view, without requiring it to have adequate scriptural support, of maligning God and being careless about His reputation. This criticism obviously does not describe any who live under the mistaken notion that the scriptures massively support their view, and that the Bible requires them to hold the view, even though they hate it. This latter group are to be commended for their loyalty, but not for their biblical literacy. If they had done more thorough research, they would have found that the case for their view does not rest upon a substantial scriptural basis at all.

In contrast to the relatively innocent ones I have just described, there appear to be some who can not be so charitably judged, who do not care that their view, which paints God in grotesque colors, has virtually no foundation in scripture, and they insist upon it nonetheless. These are the ones I have criticized—and how could anyone not do so? I can not imagine more than two possible motives for someone to do this: 1) they are afraid to disagree with tradition (the same persons would have been afraid to side with Luther and would have stayed with the papacy); or else, 2) they actually think God is as horrible as they describe Him, even against His multitude of protestations to the contrary. One who thinks of God this way may have more of this vindictive character in himself than he knows, since it is the most natural thing for a man to see God through the lens of his own heart.

"With the pure You will show Yourself pure; And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd." (2 Sam.22:27 / Ps.18:26)

I do not name anyone as belonging to either of the categories mentioned. Some may find that the shoe fits them. Those who do not should find no cause of offense in my observation.

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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by RICHinCHRIST » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:28 pm

jriccitelli wrote:If we were to list all the verses on the 'punishment' of sinners I think I would have to post the entire bible.Much to the disgruntlement of Universalists. Conditional immortality, or not.
jriccitelli wrote:against the universalist idea of 'no' hell and 'no' (or little?) punishment...
Hi jriccitelli... I've been noticing in many of your posts that you refer to universalism as though it was unitarianism... the belief that there is no hell or that there is no judgment. As Steve G. and many others have affirmed over and over, this is not what evangelical universalists believe. If you read the article that I posted earlier, it might help you to better understand what is not being considered here, as much as what is. In the past I have believed many myths about universalism which are not true. I didn't post that article because I think "it's the best article that proves universalism", but rather so that we might better understand the implications of the doctrine before we try and deconstruct its arguments.

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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by steve7150 » Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:38 pm

My question would be of bible believers and teachers that would be perplexed over God not having any punishment for the unbeliever and sinner.




To try to be clear again, the majority UR view is that there is judgment, there is punishment, there is reaping what you sow, in the lake of fire. It's just that it's not eternal, it's a finite punishment for a finite crime. However if you actually read through Rev it appears to me that there are allusions that repentence is possible at some point in the lake of fire. The lake of fire is not a sealed abyss or an ocean to drown in, and 5 verses from the end of the bible after New Jerusalem has come down at the end of the age we find this invitation "The Spirit and the bride say , Come and let him who hears say, Come whoever is thirsty, let him come, and whoever wishes, let him take the free gift of the water of life." Rev 22.17

If this part of Revelation is sequential the Spirit and bride (believers) are speaking to folks in the lake of fire. Even if it's not sequential it still sounds like they are not excluded from the invitation.

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Re: Barclay was convinced

Post by darinhouston » Sat Nov 26, 2011 3:04 pm

Homer wrote:Steve,
As you must know I do not hold the "traditional" view of hell, that the persons who are condemned are continually roasted in fire forever. I see this as figurative language. There is as much, if not more, support for being cast into "outer darkness" which I believe means total separation from God. Having said that, I think annihilation has about equal support in the scripture a\nd am undecided between the two. What I am convinced of is that there is a final judgement at the rtesurrection with no chance for a "do-over".

Rather than proving the universalist case we have gotten side-tracked into a discussion of how awful the "traditional" view is and how awful those who believe it must be in their ignorance. So we have a strawman with a not so thinly veiled ad hominem thrown in. As in item #1 of Hedges rules of controversy which I posted, we need to have a clear understanding of what is at issue. The issue that I believe we need to discuss first is this: is universalism true or false, then other issues.
I'm enjoying this thread -- Homer, I'm not sure I appreciate the relevance here of distinction you make as to your view and the "traditional" view. I doubt most thinking people believe there is really a flame that literally burns flesh without destroying it in the traditional view. Those that have thought much about it at all, I think, would recognize varying degrees of symbolism there and would have varying degrees of certainty as to what causes the misery -- however, all seem to agree that the torment is forever. For the purposes of this thread, I'm not sure it matters if it's burning flesh or being cast into utter darkness without any degree of communion with God - torment is torment -- frankly, I think some would prefer to be burned with a degree of grace and connection to God than to be in a solitary spiritual void without any spiritual or other connection to God or others whatsoever.

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