Barclay was convinced (UR)

[Roberto]

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before eternity, can it?

[Colin]

It's a little interesting that the order of these words is different in both passages. In 2 Tim it is pro chronos aionios ("before time eternal"), in Titus it is pro aionios chronos ("before eternal time"). I'm not a Greek scholar, but the best modern English equivalent would probably be "before time began". The idea appears to be that no matter how far back in time you go (i.e. eternally in the past), the event occurred even farther back. In the context, it would appear to mean events that took place before creation (i.e. the beginning of time). Your translation of "before eternity" would be pretty much the same thing.

[Homer]

Steve,

You wrote:

I listed them several posts ago (near the bottom of page 7 of this thread), and have continued referring to them with the request that the list be supplemented, if possible. Have you read my answers to you?

In regard to what you had written earlier:

While awaiting a response to them, I would like to enter my own request to those who believe in eternal torment. Please list all of the verses that tell us that God will consign the lost to a place where they will experience eternal torment. I will start the list for you, by listing the only ones I know that I once thought I found to affirm this. Please add to my list, if it is not exhaustive:

Matthew 25:46
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Revelation 14:11
Revelation 20:10

And:

If they are non-literal in these examples, on what basis could we think that they must literal in the four verses upon which you base your beliefs?

So you assign to me four verses upon which you have decided I must rest my case, and regarding a belief I have not decided upon at that. How many times do I have to say I am undecided re the traditional view and CI? I say universalism is false and there is a final judgement; that is my main concern in this discussion.

However, as I have pointed out (as recently as in the post just prior to yours), passages speaking of judgment (whether of "death," "corruption," "being consumed", "perishing", or any other synonym) cannot be used to evaluate the validity of universal reconciliation, since such destruction and judgment is acknowledged in every view. You are, apparently, assuming that something beyond physical destruction is meant by these passages, and you may be right (though it is not obvious). But even eschatological destruction cannot be said to disprove UR, unless you can show that it is endless.

And you appear to assume only physical destruction is meant. You obviously think your logic is impeccable, but you can not see that the three parallel judgement statements contrast (as antithetical statements do - they are opposites) eternal life with an opposite which is eternal punishment, corruption (which could be legitimately translated destruction) and being destroyed in fire.

I thought I had explained this clearly numerous times above. Please do not ignore my arguments. If you disagree with them, please show where they are flawed.

And where is your reply to my response to your misleading statement about kolasis on the thread "Matthew 25:46 from Universal Reconciliation Perspective? See it here:

http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3858#p50281

Is there some reason that you do not respond to arguments, but simply proceed to make the same logical errors, as if you had not been corrected? The verses that you just provided for Colin do not speak of eternal torment at all. They may be said to support conditional immortality, since "corruption" means "decay" and decay is not an eternal process, and weeds being burned in a furnace is not anything like an image of eternal torment, but of ultimate destruction.

See post on kolassis regarding responding and being corrected. And again you bring up the eternal torment strawman.

[Todd]

Absent some evidence I haven't seen yet, the idea that aionios is used in the Bible to have a different meaning appears to just be hearsay.

Colin,

Here's a verse where aionios clearly does not mean unending.

Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The fires that destroyed these cities burned out long ago. Here, in this verse in Jude, eternal has nothing to do with the duration of the fire, but the source of it. They are clearly not unending fires; rather, this speaks of divine punishment, or punishment which comes forth from the eternal God. This is how I interpret Matt 25:46.

Todd

[Homer]

Todd,

Have you considered that the result might be eternal? That those cities (not the people) might be eternally destroyed? We in the west think individualistically, while in the east the group is predominate.

[Roberto]

It's a little interesting that the order of these words is different in both passages. In 2 Tim it is pro chronos aionios ("before time eternal"), in Titus it is pro aionios chronos ("before eternal time"). I'm not a Greek scholar, but the best modern English equivalent would probably be "before time began". The idea appears to be that no matter how far back in time you go (i.e. eternally in the past), the event occurred even farther back. In the context, it would appear to mean events that took place before creation (i.e. the beginning of time). Your translation of "before eternity" would be pretty much the same thing.

Whatever aionios means here, it seems that there was something prior to it, therefore it cannot mean eternal, at least in this verse. It fits more with the idea of an interval of time. That's how it looks to me at this time, at least.
Gregory of Nyssa speaks of an "aionian interval", so I have heard, at least.....

[Roberto]

Absent some evidence I haven't seen yet, the idea that aionios is used in the Bible to have a different meaning appears to just be hearsay.

Colin,

Here's a verse where aionios clearly does not mean unending.

Jude 1:7
as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

The fires that destroyed these cities burned out long ago. Here, in this verse in Jude, eternal has nothing to do with the duration of the fire, but the source of it. They are clearly not unending fires; rather, this speaks of divine punishment, or punishment which comes forth from the eternal God. This is how I interpret Matt 25:46.

Todd

That could actually mean eternal, as it speaks of the eternal fire of G-d, the fire of His judgement made manifest in Sodom? Is that not a possible meaning? I have no teaching authority, so take with salt grain. Just don't turn into a pillar of such

[Todd]

Todd,

Have you considered that the result might be eternal? That those cities (not the people) might be eternally destroyed? We in the west think individualistically, while in the east the group is predominate.

It's possible, yes. But this doesn't help the ET view. If "eternal" is an adjective describing the word "fire", I think it is fair to make the same comparison in Matt 25 when "eternal" is describing the word "punishment". Just as the fires are not continuing, so also the punishing is not continuing. The ET view maintains that the punishing is unending.

Here's another one that should be brought up in this discussion.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

In Jesus' description of eternal life in this verse, it does not appear to have anything to do with the duration of the life, but that the life comes from knowing God and Christ. So here again one might conclude that "eternal" refers to the source of the life instead of its duration. However, I do realize that one could view this in other ways.

Todd

[Colin]

The phrase pro chronon aionion, before eternal times (2 Tim. 1:9; Tit. 1:2), cannot mean before eternity, can it?

I think you may be looking at this in too much of a scientific sense. I believe it is a bit of an idiom - that no matter how far back in eternity you go, God already existed. Based on the context, I think the writer meant for the word to mean eternity, not a fixed point in time. Also, keep in mind that God, as creator of all things, also created time and existed before time itself was created (don't ask me for a verse at the moment, but I think it can be easily corroborated). Scientifically this may not make any sense (like the query whether God can create something so heavy that he can't lift it. It becomes logically circular and unsolveable) but I think it is the concept that the promises of God predate everything, even eternity past, that the writers are trying to convey. Just my opinion.

[Colin]

While awaiting a response to them, I would like to enter my own request to those who believe in eternal torment. Please list all of the verses that tell us that God will consign the lost to a place where they will experience eternal torment. I will start the list for you, by listing the only ones I know that I once thought I found to affirm this. Please add to my list, if it is not exhaustive:

Matthew 25:46
2 Thessalonians 1:9
Revelation 14:11
Revelation 20:10

I've gone a little beyond this and tried to look for verses which indicate some eternal consequence, whether it be torment or something else:

Rev 20:10 NKJV - The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet [are]. And they will be tormented (“basaniso” – to torture, vex with grevious pains, to be harassed, distressed) day and night forever and ever.
Rev 14:11 NKJV - "And the smoke of their torment (“basanismos”) ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
Mat 18:8 NKJV - "If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast [it] from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire (“pyr” - fire ).
Mat 25:41 NKJV - "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire (“pyr”) prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 NKJV - "And these will go away into everlasting punishment (“kolasis” – correction, punishment, penalty), but the righteous into eternal life."
Mar 3:29 NKJV - "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation (“krisis” – a separating, sentence of condemnation, justice)"—
2Th 1:9 NKJV - These shall be punished with everlasting destruction (“olethros” – ruin, destroy, death) from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Hbr 6:2 NKJV - of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment (“krima” – judgment, sentence).
Dan 12:2 NKJV - And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt (Hebrew “deraown” – aversion, abhorrence).

The only two that specifically use the word "basanismos", which is the only one used that could be translated "torture", are the two from Revelation, and it is interesting to note that these two verses specifically apply to the Devil, the beast, the false profit, those who worship the beast, and whoever receives the mark of the beast, although they are in the same place (the "lake of fire") where those whose name is not in the book of life end up.

Want something else interesting? These two verses from Revelation use the word "aion", which can mean forever but can also mean a limited time (an "age"). The other verses use the word "aionios", which seems to always mean eternal, never for a limited time.

However, if the correct translation in the two verses is "torture" I'm not convinced that this is some kind of "active" torture performed by God, as in a torture chamber, but rather a description of the effect that being in the "lake of fire" has on these folks. In other words, being in the lake of fire causes them pain (which may be emotional, not physical pain). To give an example, if someone is put in a jail cell and stuck there for a long time while everyone else is outside having a big party, the longing to be released may cause emotional pain to the person in jail. I'm just speculating, of course.