Barclay was convinced (UR)

[Roberto]

It is clear from reading through this thread again that we can't seem to agree on the correct meaning of certain words, or even if certain words are nouns or adjectives. This is not a new issue, of course, people have debated over the meaning of words for a long, long time. But I would recommend that each of us read the following:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/aionion.htm

It is an excellent, expert analysis of the words and passages that we have been discussing. You are free to accept the accuracy of the content, of course, but if you take the time to read it all the way through I think you will see that it is very thorough and exhaustive.

thanks, Colin- that looks like a good resource!

[Todd]

Hi Todd,

That is an easy one. All people are condemned to die, even before they are born, because of Adam's (and Eve's) sin. All will be resurrected because of what Jesus did. Where they go next is the issue.

Homer,

It's not quite that easy. While you might reach that conclusion with the verse from 1 Cor 15:22, you can't do so with this one...

Rom 5:18
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Todd

[jriccitelli]

I wanted to respond to Todd, and yet first comment on ‘aionios’, but as I looked 'most' everything I was going to say has been said. While I was gone.
I automatically interpret Matt 25:46 as a parallelism also, it’s not hard to do after reading chap. 5 over and over, and knowing Jesus often uses the biblical Hebrew antithesis’ as in; 'He who does not hate his own father and mother'.

And although the fire was ‘prepared’ for the devil and his angels; 25:4. It was not ‘prepared’ for humans.
Humans are thrown in because they are the devils ‘followers’. So whether humans are punished 'in' the lake of fire or 'before', nothing seems to say the humans will (consciously) burn forever.
Like a furnace prepared for one thing, other things can be thrown in.
Although angels are punished forever I do not see this demanding that the humans are automatically included in the ‘same punishment’ that the angels receive. The angels may be punished in the same place as humans but it doesn’t seem, from other scriptures, that they must receive the same ‘extent’ or ‘length’ of punishment.
The fire it seems to me is ‘eternal’, and the smoke of it will arise forever as a 'reminder' of the Holy judgment on man and sin.
Maybe the shortened punishment of some humans is God giving them some of the grace they so much need. Which leads me to my answer of Todd’s Nov 17 post…

[jriccitelli]

Todd, I am happy to respond to your post. I wanted to hug you for asking the question on Nov 27 (Not 17), but since you posted Romans 5:18, first I will have to say that the ‘Gift’ is ‘not like the transgression’. And also the gift is a gift, you have to accept the gift. We don’t accept the transgression, we just transgress.
The free gift came to all men, (By 'faith', as with Abraham) resulting in justification of life.
For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness" (Romans 4:3)

“Being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (Romans 3:24)
Whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:24-26)
Note the idea of a 'demonstration' at the 'present time', and how He 'previously' looked over the sins, but 'now' he commands everyone everywhere to repent.
"But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe" (Galations 3:22)

[Todd]

Since we are spending a lot of effort in understanding Matt 25:46, I think we need to also consider its context. According to the story, those who are counted worthy of eternal life are those who do good works, while those who are counted worthy of eternal punishment are those who neglected to do good works - the story doesn't indicate they did anything bad, just that they neglected to do good.

With this in mind, how does this square with the common understanding of salvation? And if it doesn't measure up, so that the story shouldn't be taken literally, then maybe Matt 25:46 shouldn't be taken literally either.

On the other hand, I don't think the "eternal life" and "eternal punishment" spoken of in v.46 are speaking of post-resurrection judgment. I see it as present life judgment as those who neglect to do good works are condemned by God with guilt and shame in their hearts, while those who do good works are rewarded with joy and peace in the Holy Spirit.

Todd

[jriccitelli]

Todd the kingdom of God is being compared, like in 25:1, to earthly things, but the kingdom is not given until Christ comes back, in vs.31;
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
(That sure doesn't sound like that happened already)
And the Devil has not been thrown in to the eternal fire of vs.41, this seems to happen after he separates the sheep from the goats (32). These are future, and the good 'works' are a result of our doing the righteous commands of God, ‘showing’ ourselves redeemed by our fruits, not to get saved."This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
This refers to people responding to what ‘has’ been revealed and given to them.
And what they did 'while they had the chance', otherwise Jesus would of said in verse 25:34 Come you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom, but for the rest of you, you will go to punishment for a little while then you will come back to the wedding feast.
Rats i have to go...

[Todd]

Todd the kingdom of God is being compared, like in 25:1, to earthly things, ...

Firstly, I'd say you are viewing this non-literally, as I have suggested, and are using other scriptures to make sense of it. There's nothing wrong with that, but if you take that approach, you should also take Matt 25:46 non-literally as well.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne...

I believe Christ is already on his throne (e.g., Heb 12:2, 1 Pet 3:22) executing judgment and wrath (e.g., Rom 1:18-32, Rom 13:4).

Todd

[steve]

Homer,

You wrote:

Perhaps I misunderstand you here, but are you saying that in Daniel 12:1-3 those whose names were written in the book were resurrected to temporal life?

What I said was that the expression "aionios life", so often spoken of by New Testament writers, was an expression they would have known from the LXX, meaning that, when using this term, there is a good chance they were using the adjective the same way it was used in their Bible. The meaning of aionios, in the time of the LXX translators, was apparently the same as the meaning of the Hebrew word olam. My point (I guess I am not good at making myself clear) was that the New Testament usage of aionios was probably guided by the usage in the LXX, and was therefore the same as the meaning of olam in Hebrew—regardless whether or not any of these words had drifted into different usages in the secular literature.

I hardly see why this point should need to be made again, since it has been done numerous times. The wordolam (synonymous with aionios) does not mean "endless"—though the thing referred to might also be endless. The lexicons agree that Olam means "beyond the horizon," or "the vanishing point." It speaks of something extending for a long distance into the future or past. That which extends beyond the range of our vision may, in fact, be endless, or it may not be. Olam means that the end is not visible to us. Thus, Chicago is beyond the vanishing point from where I am standing. So is the end of the universe (if there is one). To use the same word does not commit to the same distance.

I do not think that "olam life," in Daniel 12, speaks of temporal life. It speaks of life that goes beyond the distance we can see. There are reasons from other parts of scripture that would tell us it is endless. The word olam does not commit to this. Some things that are olam are endless (e.g., God), and some things that are olam are not endless (e.g., the length of time that a bondservant remains in servitude, or the duration of Jerusalem's doors). All of them are long-enduring.

Perhaps you missed both my posts regarding your post on kolasis. I was hoping you would respond:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3858#p50281

Your post on kolasis did not require refutation. It made no point that has not been made by Paidion or other evangelical universalists. Perhaps you did not notice, but the scholars you cited listed "chastisement" as a principal meaning of kolasis in classical and koine Greek. This agrees with what universalists say. "Chastisement" is, by definition, "corrective."

Because I am very busy, I hope that you will not ask me to respond to your every post—especially those in which you repeat the same points that have been decisively answered previously in the discussion. It is not my object to continue arguing until others surrender—nor even to seek their agreement with me. My sole interest is to answer honest questions about scripture to the best of my ability. If you don't like my answers, that is all right. Since you do not pay notice to the posts that disprove your points, and simply restate the same disproved propositions, I have the impression you are determined to argue until you wear out your opponent—even when there remain no further arguments for you to present. This being so, I am glad to accommodate you. I am not quite worn out, but I must back out before that point has been reached.

[Colin]

What I said was that the expression "aionios life", so often spoken of by New Testament writers, was an expression they would have known from the LXX, meaning that, when using this term, there is a good chance they were using the adjective the same way it was used in their Bible. The meaning of aionios, in the time of the LXX translators, was apparently the same as the meaning of the Hebrew word olam. My point (I guess I am not good at making myself clear) was that the New Testament usage of aionios was probably guided by the usage in the LXX, and was therefore the same as the meaning of olam in Hebrew—regardless whether or not any of these words had drifted into different usages in the secular literature.

Ahhh...now I get what you are saying. If I can try to restate this, you are saying that the OT olam, which doesn't literally mean eternal and can often mean a finite time period, was consistently translated in the LXX as aionios. So even though aionios may have normally meant eternal in NT times, the writers may have been using it based on the LXX useage, equivalent to olam, not meaning eternal. Interesting.

I guess my question is that, if this was the case, what does that say about all the "good" eternal things? Everlasting life, the eternal nature and glory of God, eternal covenant, eternal salvation, heaven being eternal, etc. Does this line of thought make some or all of those limited in duration? If you start reading all of the verses in the NT that use aionion and aionios substituting "for an age" instead of "eternal" it seems to really bring into question what salvation really means. That's a slippery slope that kind of scares me.

On a different note, I have had a hard time finding a Greek to English word-by-word translation of the LXX. I have side-by-side verses, but my Greek knowledge is so poor that it takes me forever to figure out individual words. For OT Hebrew and NT Greek http://www.blueletterbible.org is great at showing a word-by-word translation but they don't have the LXX that way. Anyone know of a good, searchable word-by-word translation of the LXX online?

[steve7150]

I guess my question is that, if this was the case, what does that say about all the "good" eternal things? Everlasting life, the eternal nature and glory of God, eternal covenant, eternal salvation, heaven being eternal, etc. Does this line of thought make some or all of those limited in duration? If you start reading all of the verses in the NT that use aionion and aionios substituting "for an age" instead of "eternal" it seems to really bring into question what salvation really means. That's a slippery slope that kind of scares me.





I think you would find "aionios" associated with God or the kingdom of God seems to mean "eternal"in the NT but if "aionios" is associated with non immortal things, like the unsaved or temporal time periods, you would find it to mean "age-lasting."