Barclay was convinced (UR)

[Ralph]

More general comments:

For many years, a recurring personal prayer has been that Jesus will make me to love all of His people and those who are not yet His people, and that He will use me to lead many into His kingdom. The last part of that prayer has recently become … that He will use me to lead thousands and even millions into His kingdom. My vision for the Lord’s use of me in my lifetime has widened as I have aged and as my understandings of His love and compassion and mercy and forgiveness and power have grown. With that as an introduction …

Almost immediately after submitting my first post to this website on October 22, 2011 under the “Views of Hell” topic, I had a thought that at first seemed radical to me. Since then, I have come to believe that my thought may not be radical at all, and that many other simple followers of Christ (perhaps many tens of thousands or even more) across centuries of time may have had the same thought as me and may have acted on it just as I have. Here is essentially what I am now praying: “Lord Jesus Christ, shine your light so brightly, so intensely, upon all of the world’s peoples that they cannot miss seeing who you really are. Bring all of them unto you and forever rescue all of them to your glory. Amen.”

Immediately I began to wonder whether the Lord might be waiting for His people to ask Him to do what has seemed to them to be unimaginable and impossible based upon their orthodox theological understandings that are based upon seemingly-very-clear readings of the Bible and its seemingly-very-clear promises for the future.

I realized from the beginning that many might argue that a proper consideration of the full nature and activity of the triune God within the whole of the Bible does not permit any follower of Jesus Christ to pray a prayer like that, because certainly many people deserve to be forever lost and will be forever lost from the presence of the Lord.

I think the Lord would be thrilled and that heaven would rejoice to see Christ’s followers around the world, as one, become so deeply moved by the depths of His everlasting love and mercy and compassion, that His followers would ask Him to forever rescue all the peoples of the whole world, to his glory. That unity and outflow of Christ’s love among His followers to all the world’s peoples would be a wonder to behold, and I am praying and eagerly waiting for it.

May the power and love of Christ fill us, to His glory.

[steve7150]

I think the Lord would be thrilled and that heaven would rejoice to see Christ’s followers around the world, as one, become so deeply moved by the depths of His everlasting love and mercy and compassion, that His followers would ask Him to forever rescue all the peoples of the whole world, to his glory. That unity and outflow of Christ’s love among His followers to all the world’s peoples would be a wonder to behold, and I am praying and eagerly waiting for it.

May the power and love of Christ fill us, to His glory.
Ralph




Amen brother!

[jriccitelli]

Does Universalism lead to Liberalism?
I pray that everyone accepts the Gospel, and that is why I am defending the 'urgency' of preaching the Gospel.
I have to fully agree with Steves last post. So my post will address the universalists. Steve 'daily' is put on the spot to answer, or lecture on 'dozens' of topics, and I am impressed with the time he devotes and gives to this ministry, this forum, and the people who look forward to hearing him. Thank's Steve.

I think the ‘possibility’ of people having an opportunity to ‘accept’ the Gospel after death is ‘possible’ based on our deducing that God is loving, compassionate, long suffering, and fair.
And you may deduce that it is His ‘will’ that none should perish, but I personally do not see that this ‘saving’ can be separated from Gods will that ‘all repent’ also. The command to repent is stressed ‘too’ much throughout scripture to think it will be 'easily' accomplished post mortem simply by God revealing Himself. In fact I use the fact that God keeps himself hidden as evidence that God has chosen relatively non-miraculous means to reveal himself, (That is post Christ’s resurrection) such as through preaching and through a ‘book’. (Christ himself did not make a spectacle of his ministry)
(…No sign shall be given except the sign of Jonah)
God ‘could’ put one foot on Texas and one foot on Canada, look down at us and say REPENT, have everyone confess, and get it all over with in ten minutes, but He doesn’t.

Seeing God postmortem will in any case be dramatic, (Too say the least)
But consider this; a person post mortem may think to himself; “Hey I’m still alive, I’m standing, if I really think I’m still immortal then God here still is going to have to put up with me whether I repent or not”
Or the non-punishment Universalist could consider someone thinking; “God here doesn’t really seem to be handing out any punishments, what have I got to fear if I don’t accept this preaching?” There must be a conviction, a conviction of a real possible punishment.
I don’t think it is simply because they are falling in love with His goodness. Much of mankind has been proven to have a heart that is hard, prone to deceit, unwilling, etc. The Bible pages seem to point this out chapter after chapter.
An expectation that God will save each and every one of us, would lead to (And I can testify to this) a ‘belief’ that we are inherently good, a belief in the common goodness of mankind to the result in a belief that we are ‘not’ sinners. People are thinking ‘Maybe there are some bad people, but certainly ‘I’ am a good person who is going heaven’
I have encountered too many people -christians-! (?) Who feel they are not sinners, people who believe they are not like these other people, and even a liberalism that says ‘all’ mankind is good, maybe just products of unfortunate circumstances.
I think the Bible reveals two main prepositions; 1; God is Holy. 2; Man is not.
Sure God is compassionate and full of grace to things that are ‘not’, but without any personal obligation or reason to repent we enter into liberalism.

(Can we imagine that seeing Jesus as He really is could fail to inspire such admiration?)
i dont know if this is seeing Jesus in His Glory, or as a humble preacher. People did encounter Jesus in the flesh when he walked among Jerusalem and some loved Him and some did not. Even having done the miracles and being the messiah did not seem to be enough to convince many of those who saw him.
Do we not know a Jesus whom any sane person would love, were they to be stripped of all their prejudicial misconceptions about Him?
I think humans are 'tested' on their 'own' prejudices, self assuring deciet, and their 'will', give or take their presuppositions.
I encounter people who have a clear unclouded presentation of the Gospel, who understand it even and 'believe' it , yet still do not feel the want or need to embrace the Gospel. People do have to take personal responsibility for their own misinformation at some point, and some just dont seem to ever want to take that responsibility no matter what evidence you present to them.

I find ‘one’ verse, two possibly, directly addressing post mortem ‘preaching’.
The unrepentant could possibly ‘accept’ the Gospel post mortem, but it seems clear from these two verses that they had the Gospel ‘preached’ to them, it doesn’t say here that ‘all’ receive the gift of salvation, it does not tell us if they accepted, or how many.
The Gospel is an ‘invitation’ to ‘accept’ Gods love and forgiveness, it never says they all accept, this one verse ‘does not tell us plainly’ whether people outside the context of this verse will get the chance to have the gospel preached to them, yet I do believe it is entirely ‘possible’ that they are preached too!
“For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead” (1 Peter 4:6) (Was it only those who died pre-resurrection, I don’t know)
And, the verse concerning Jesus preaching to those who died before Noah’s flood.
I hold that the two main reasons ‘against’ stating that post mortem ‘acceptance’ is biblical ‘fact’;
1. There is really only one, maybe two, supporting verses, in comparison to the overwhelming amount of verses that suggest an ‘urgency’ to accept now, the 'emphasis' on Believing, having Faith, warnings of unbelief, warning of false gospels, warnings of being cut off, warnings against falling away, warnings against not being hypocrites, warnings to continue to abide in Him, etc.
2. It can lead to a view that it's not 'urgent' to call people to repentance, and the verses that speak of unbelief cannot be taken as simply a lack of evidence, mabey for the unreached, but there 'may' not be a second chance for those who have been once enlightened.

Jonah’s heart was still not changed despite the arm twisting, God speaking directly to Jonah, and the miraculous events. Whether his heart changed in the end, we don’t know but Jesus referenced this, maybe also as a note on Jonah. God still needed to see a change of heart, and Jonah is a note on how stubborn mans heart is. This is how we know we are His, that we have love for one another. (1John)

[steve7150]

Jonah’s heart was still not changed despite the arm twisting, God speaking directly to Jonah, and the miraculous events. Whether his heart changed in the end, we don’t know but Jesus referenced this, maybe also as a note on Jonah. God still needed to see a change of heart, and Jonah is a note on how stubborn mans heart is. This is how we know we are His, that we have love for one another. (1John)




I would like to mention for the umpteenth time that Paul said the devil is "the god of this age who blinds the minds of unbelievers" 2nd Cor 4.4. I don't know how powerful the devil's power actually is, or if Paul if using a bit of hyperbole but i do know the devil is destroyed in the LOF, before unbelievers are judged and i think the timing is no coincidence.
Do you think or does anyone think there is a possibility of some outcome between universalism and CI?

[Colin]

In the lake of fire, we do not know what happens, but the UR theory suggests that people may yet repent and be released to dwell under the reign of the saints. In my opinion, these who were not faithful in life have forever forfeited their opportunity to reign with Christ (because they refused to suffer with him). If there is any return from the lake of fire to the new earth, it is to the environs outside the city gates of New Jerusalem.

I'm curious if there are any verses that suggest that this would be the case, especially the part about the repentant being under the reign of the saints and dwelling outside the New Jerusalem?

I'm also curious how this fits in with the story Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31. In verse 24 the rich man, in tormet in Hades, asks for mercy, and for Lazarus to be sent to comfort him. No mercy is given to him, not even a drop of water. In verse 26 Abraham replies that there is too great a gulf and people can't go from Hades to the bosom of Abraham, or from the bosom of Abraham to Hades.

[steve]

I'm curious if there are any verses that suggest that this would be the case, especially the part about the repentant being under the reign of the saints

This is nowhere explicitly stated, which is why I present it only as one possible view. It is clear that the saints who reign with Christ must reign over something or somebody (Luke 12:42-44; 19:17, 19; 2 Tim.2:12). There seem to a limited number of possible theories as to who it is over whom they reign. Those who failed to inherit the kingdom as ruling heirs (as Jesus said many shall fail to do), but who belatedly enter it as subjects, seems as good a theory as any alternative I have heard.

and dwelling outside the New Jerusalem?

Again, it is only a possibility. However, the verses that might point this direction would be Revelation 22:14-15; Matt.25:10-12.

I'm also curious how this fits in with the story Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31. In verse 24 the rich man, in tormet in Hades, asks for mercy, and for Lazarus to be sent to comfort him. No mercy is given to him, not even a drop of water. In verse 26 Abraham replies that there is too great a gulf and people can't go from Hades to the bosom of Abraham, or from the bosom of Abraham to Hades.

Luke 16 has nothing to say about conditions after the final judgment. Whether it is intended to tell us anything about the actual present state of affairs in Hades, has been very much debated, since it appears to be a parable whose lesson has less to do with the final state of the lost than the point that those Jews who were neglecting the revelation given through Moses comprised a group who would be similarly unresponsive to Christ's resurrection (agreeable with similar passages like John 5:46-47 and Acts 7:51-53).

[steve7150]

I'm curious if there are any verses that suggest that this would be the case, especially the part about the repentant being under the reign of the saints and dwelling outside the New Jerusalem?

I'm also curious how this fits in with the story Jesus told in Luke 16:19-31. In verse 24 the rich man, in tormet in Hades, asks for mercy, and for Lazarus to be sent to comfort him. No mercy is given to him, not even a drop of water. In verse 26 Abraham replies that there is too great a gulf and people can't go from Hades to the bosom of Abraham, or from the bosom of Abraham to Hades.




I think there are verses that allude to it like Rev 22.17 , which is an invitation from the Spirit and the Bride to whosoever thirsts, to drink from the water of life. The question is who are they talking to. They may be talking to folks in the LOF. Also the description of a "lake of fire" is actually a lot different then if it were a sealed abyss. A lake can be walked into and out of, obviously only if Jesus allows it.
Re The Rich Man and Lazarus , yes people on their own accord can't go from Hades to Paradise but God can move them if he wishes. Additionally i think it's a prophecy about Israel losing it's position of favor because Abraham says "they have Moses and the prophets." Only Israel has Moses and the prophets.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Do you think or does anyone think there is a possibility of some outcome between universalism and CI?

I think a combination of the two views could make sense of the reason why we see both sides of the coin in the Scriptures. But, we must clarify, that a merge would disqualify universal reconciliation. It would then be a merge of annihilation and post-mortem reconciliation, but the reconciliation would obviously not be universal (since some would be snuffed out with no hope of restoration). I think this would make sense of a lot of questions such as, "What about those who don't hear the gospel adequately?" or "What about the blinding influence of the devil and the strong gravitational pull of the flesh on ignorant people who know no better?" or "What about the unpardonable sin?" I've thought that it's possible that false teachers specifically (2 Pet 2:17), or even those who depart from the faith might be annihilated (since they had more knowledge and opportunity, and sinned against the Holy Spirit more directly) whereas the ignorant worldly folk might be shown more mercy. That's mere speculation, though. However, I'm not a father, but I would think that God's heart might equally be toward His backslidden children (if not more) than for the lost world. If He had the willingness to reconcile them too, then I couldn't think why He would not. This is the problem I have with accepting a merge though: If God is willing to redeem some (or even most!) after death, why would He not be willing to reconcile all?

[steve7150]

That's mere speculation, though. However, I'm not a father, but I would think that God's heart might equally be toward His backslidden children (if not more) than for the lost world. If He had the willingness to reconcile them too, then I couldn't think why He would not. This is the problem I have with accepting a merge though: If God is willing to redeem some (or even most!) after death, why would He not be willing to reconcile all?
RICHinCHRIST




God is willing but if there actually
are a certain amount of folks who after everything are still unrepentent? What then? Just speculation but i'm not sure why it has to be either UR or CI and no common ground in the middle.

[Michelle]

God is willing but if there actually
are a certain amount of folks who after everything are still unrepentent? What then? Just speculation but i'm not sure why it has to be either UR or CI and no common ground in the middle.

Hmm... common ground in the middle... maybe it could look like this: God consigns the unrepentant to torment in hell until they repent. Some take only moments to see their folly and bow their knee to the King; some take longer. God, in His mercy, allows them to take all the time necessary, being patient toward them, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But some are tough; they resist for a long, long time - their resistance is age-abiding. You might even say they resist for an 'eternity', and thus you could say they are in eternal conscious torment in hell.