Barclay was convinced (UR)

[steve7150]

To say it is prophetic, is to make an assumption, as i have heard, i would rather not say a verse was prophetic unless another biblical writer 'says' it is prophetic. Universalists are assuming 'all' will believe, you cant give evidence that Paul is being prophetic if nothing tells us all will 'believe'.










Steve G had listed about 70 verses that sound like there will be a future time when all will believe, therefore the many verses from Paul that sound similar to this thread throughout the bible regarding UR , are stronger then assumptions IMO.
The fact is, that it is God's will that everyone get saved and in Eph 1.11 Paul says everything that happens is for God's pleasure, which sounds to me that God's will is unfolding gradually over the time God wants it to.

[Colin]

I'm curious, what is the UR take on Hebrews 6:4-6? How does the "impossible...to renew them to repentance" fit in with the idea that eventually everyone will repent?



I take it as hyperbole meaning it's very difficult to repent. If you take it literally then it should also not be possible for a rich man to enter heaven unless a camel can walk through the eye of a needle.

The examples you give use a different word entirely. In Hebrews 6:4, "impossible" is "adynatos", the same word used in Hebrews 6:18 (It is impossible for God to lie). If you are looking at the use in Matthew 19:26, yes that is the same word, but Jesus is answering the question "Who then can be saved" when he uses it (saying "with men this is not possible", i.e. man can't be saved by his own power). His response is not in regards to the statements he made in verses 23 and 24.

In verse 23 (hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven) the word for "hard" is "dyskolos", which means "with difficulty". In verse 24 it states that it is easier (greek eukopos, literally "easy") for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god. Both 23 and 24 are making statements about a rich man entering into the kingdom of God, and Jesus states that this would be very, very difficult, but he doesn't say it is impossible.

So...presuming impossible means impossible, how does UR explain Hebrews 6:4-6?

If you look at the word "adynatos" as it is used in the NT (it is used ten times), it is always in a context that should mean "impossible" or "having no power to do so". If it is taken to mean only "very difficult, but possible" then:

- it would be difficult, but possible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18),
- difficult but possible to be saved through following the OT law (Romans 8:3), not only through the atonement of Jesus,
- difficult but possible for the blood of bulls and goats, not just the blood of Jesus, to forgive sins (Hebrews 10:4).

To make the definition anything other than "impossible" or "having no power to do so" causes many other statements, some in the same book, and one even in the same chapter, to not be consistent with the teaching of the Gospel.

[steve7150]

To make the definition anything other than "impossible" or "having no power to do so" causes many other statements, some in the same book, and one even in the same chapter, to not be consistent with the teaching of the Gospel.








To take this one verse literally would contradict many verses in the NT because that would mean if you believe , then fall away you could never return because it's impossible. So if this verse is literal it would'nt just take away UR , it would limit salvation dramatically since many people who believe have fallen and then later returned.
The context of Hebrews is the author warning jewish believers facing persecution from their own religious leaders not to fall away and IMO he is emphasizing how difficult it will be for them to return to Christ if they go back to the law. If Paul is the author he also used strong language to a similar group in Galatians.
I think it's a literary technique and hyperbole, but if you see it literally that's OK.

[Roberto]

I'm curious, what is the UR take on Hebrews 6:4-6? How does the "impossible...to renew them to repentance" fit in with the idea that eventually everyone will repent?



I take it as hyperbole meaning it's very difficult to repent. If you take it literally then it should also not be possible for a rich man to enter heaven unless a camel can walk through the eye of a needle.

The examples you give use a different word entirely. In Hebrews 6:4, "impossible" is "adynatos", the same word used in Hebrews 6:18 (It is impossible for God to lie). If you are looking at the use in Matthew 19:26, yes that is the same word, but Jesus is answering the question "Who then can be saved" when he uses it (saying "with men this is not possible", i.e. man can't be saved by his own power). His response is not in regards to the statements he made in verses 23 and 24.

In verse 23 (hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven) the word for "hard" is "dyskolos", which means "with difficulty". In verse 24 it states that it is easier (greek eukopos, literally "easy") for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of god. Both 23 and 24 are making statements about a rich man entering into the kingdom of God, and Jesus states that this would be very, very difficult, but he doesn't say it is impossible.

So...presuming impossible means impossible, how does UR explain Hebrews 6:4-6?

If you look at the word "adynatos" as it is used in the NT (it is used ten times), it is always in a context that should mean "impossible" or "having no power to do so". If it is taken to mean only "very difficult, but possible" then:

- it would be difficult, but possible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18),
- difficult but possible to be saved through following the OT law (Romans 8:3), not only through the atonement of Jesus,
- difficult but possible for the blood of bulls and goats, not just the blood of Jesus, to forgive sins (Hebrews 10:4).

To make the definition anything other than "impossible" or "having no power to do so" causes many other statements, some in the same book, and one even in the same chapter, to not be consistent with the teaching of the Gospel.

Doesn't the bible say that with God, nothing is impossible? So maybe it means that man cannot break through to the people in question? I don't know, just surmising

[Colin]

Doesn't the bible say that with God, nothing is impossible? So maybe it means that man cannot break through to the people in question? I don't know, just surmising

In the verses you are thinking of (Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37, etc.) the greek is "ou pas rema adynateo". Literally this is (not)(every/all/some of each type)(statements)(impossible). I think a more literal translation would be that "nothing God has stated is impossible". There are things that are impossible to God (such as lying, God can't lie), so it couldn't mean that nothing at all is impossible.

[Paidion]

Colin, another interesting extra-biblical use of “αἰωνιος” is found in the Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, written by John Chrysostom (c. 347–407). He wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is αἰωνιος (agey), in other words it will cease with the present αἰων (age).” So Chrysostum apparently believed that “αἰωνιος” meant exactly the opposite to “eternal”! ---- that is “ lasting” but in this case also “temporary.”

[Paidion]

I'm curious, what is the UR take on Hebrews 6:4-6? How does the "impossible...to renew them to repentance" fit in with the idea that eventually everyone will repent?

The word "impossible" is a translation. The Greek word "αδυνατος" actually means "powerless". When people deliberately apostatize, "crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt", then their minds are made up. All attempts to renew them to repentance are powerless. However, this fact does not imply that this is a permanent state of mind for these people.

[Homer]

Steve,

Earlier in this thread you posted a list of some 74 proof-texts you consider as favorable to UR. It will take considerable time to do them justice but I have been working on it. One of the first ones I noticed was in the "every knee shall bow" category, Revelation 5:13. One of your comments following the list was as follows:

a. Not every verse listed in a category gives exactly the same information as is included in every other listed verse. The ones that are more explicit, however, by normal canons of exegesis, would be permitted to inform the interpretation of the ones that are less explicit.

So looking at Revelation 5:13:
New King James Version (NKJV)

13. And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:


“ Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

But then Isaiah, speaking prophetically, also spoke of "all flesh" coming to worship the Lord. But "all flesh" does not mean all people! For Isaiah goes on to speak of the "all flesh" going forth to look upon the corpses in words repeated by Jesus in Mark 9:42-48:

Isaiah 66:23-24
New King James Version (NKJV)

23. And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the LORD.
24. “ And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

I would say Revelation 5:13 is of no use at all to the universalist according to your "comment a." above. And the same would apply to Revelation 15:4. And how is it that "all nations" is taken to mean "every individual that ever existed". What cannon of interpretation is that based on?

Revelation 15:4
New King James Version (NKJV)

4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
For You alone are holy.
For all nations shall come and worship before You,
For Your judgments have been manifested.”

You listed two categories solely from the Old Testament with the exception of Rev. 15:4 dealt with above:

5. Through judgment, God corrects: Isa.26:9 / Lev.26:23-24 / Job 5:17-18 / Jer.9:6-7 / Jer.30:24 / Hab.1:12 / Rev.15:4

6. After judgment, God restores: Jer. 23:20 / Lam.3:31-33 / 2 Sam.14:14 / Ps.107:10-13 / Isa.25:6-8 / Zeph.3:8-9

Generally speaking, the Old Testament appears to have nothing to say regarding any universal salvation. God certainly corrects through judgement and restores after judgement. But does this not speak of nations or remnants of nations? Can you show an example where a whole nation was judged and all individuals were later restored? And how could this be when many years or centuries passed between the correction and restoration? Nevertheless there were three Old Testament verses you listed that upon a cursory reading might appear to favor universalism:

2 Samuel 14:14
New King James Version (NKJV)

14. For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

The "wise woman" is trying to persuade the king to forgive. She reminds him of the brevity of life and that God is merciful. God's usual practice is not to slay sinners but gives ample opportunity to repent, as He did with David. There is nothing here about after death repentance.

Isaiah 25:6-8
New King James Version (NKJV)

6. And in this mountain
The LORD of hosts will make for all people
A feast of choice pieces,
A feast of wines on the lees,
Of fat things full of marrow,
Of well-refined wines on the lees.
7. And He will destroy on this mountain
The surface of the covering cast over all people,
And the veil that is spread over all nations.
8. He will swallow up death forever,
And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces;
The rebuke of His people
He will take away from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.

Again a cursory reading might be considered favorable to universalism, that is, if you stop there. Reading 9-12:

9. And it will be said in that day:

“ Behold, this is our God;
We have waited for Him, and He will save us.
This is the LORD;
We have waited for Him;
We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation.”
10. For on this mountain the hand of the LORD will rest,
And Moab shall be trampled down under Him,
As straw is trampled down for the refuse heap.
11. And He will spread out His hands in their midst
As a swimmer reaches out to swim,
And He will bring down their pride
Together with the trickery of their hands.
12. The fortress of the high fort of your walls
He will bring down, lay low,
And bring to the ground, down to the dust.

Lange's Commentary:
"In opposition to the high, triumphant joy of believers, the prophet now depicts thelot of unbelievers. He mentions Moab as representative of the latter. He can not mean thereby the whole nation of Moab. For all nations partake of the great feast on the holy mountain, from all nations the covering is taken off, from all faces the tears are wiped away. Moab consequently cannot be excluded....It can therefore be only the Moab that hardens itself against the knowledge of God which will suffer the doom described in v. 10 sqq. But if Moab, so far as it is hostile to God, has to bear this sentence, why not God-opposing elements from all other nations? Moab therefore stands for all."

Zephaniah 3:8-9
New King James Version (NKJV)

8. “ Therefore wait for Me,” says the LORD,

“ Until the day I rise up for plunder;
My determination is to gather the nations
To My assembly of kingdoms,
To pour on them My indignation,
All My fierce anger;
All the earth shall be devoured
With the fire of My jealousy.
9 “ For then I will restore to the peoples a pure language,
That they all may call on the name of the LORD,
To serve Him with one accord.

So here we have a proof-text from a book of poetic prophecy. It may well be a prophecy applicable to end times. But reading the entire book we find that God preserves only a remnant, His usual practice. Again, nothing to support universalism.

[Todd]

So...presuming impossible means impossible, how does UR explain Hebrews 6:4-6?

Colin,

My answer would be that - while we are in the flesh - it is impossible, but once we are changed in the resurrection, it will not only be possible, it will be certain.

Todd

[steve7150]

In the verses you are thinking of (Mark 10:27, Luke 1:37, etc.) the greek is "ou pas rema adynateo". Literally this is (not)(every/all/some of each type)(statements)(impossible). I think a more literal translation would be that "nothing God has stated is impossible". There are things that are impossible to God (such as lying, God can't lie), so it couldn't mean that nothing at all is impossible.











OK but i think that anything that is God's will , is not impossible for God to accomplish.