Barclay was convinced (UR)

[Homer]

Paidion wrote:

Can you quote any passage which teaches that death is the cutoff point after which there is no possibility of repentance? Or do you accept this idea only because you were taught it?

I just came across Paidion's comment as I was pondering Steve's list of proof-texts for universalism. Category #2:

2. God is not satisfied that any lost ones should fail to be recovered: Matt.18:11, 14 / Luke 15:4 / 1 Tim.2:4 / Rom.11:32 / Ezek.33:11 / 2 Pet.3:9

I was thinking in particular about 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9:

1 Timothy 2:4
New King James Version (NKJV)

4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
New King James Version (NKJV)

9. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

It appears to me Jesus spoke clearly of a cut-off point beyond which no one will be saved:

John 6:37-58
New King James Version (NKJV)

37. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
41. The Jews then complained about Him, because He said, “I am the bread which came down from heaven.” 42. And they said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that He says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?”
43. Jesus therefore answered and said to them, “Do not murmur among yourselves. 44. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. 46. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father. 47. Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48. I am the bread of life. 49. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
52. The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”
53. Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. 54. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. 56. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. 57. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58. This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

So from Jesus' words we see:

1. All the Father gives Him will come to Him.

2. The Father's will is that Jesus will lose none of them, and they will be raised on the last day.

3. God's will is that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life and be raised on the last day.

4. Jesus is the bread of life; those who eat of it will live (have eternal life); those who do not will die.

It sure reads to me as though "the last day" is the cut-off point. All the Father gives to Jesus will be raised up, the others will die:

John 5:28-29
New King James Version (NKJV)

28. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29. and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

[steve7150]

It sure reads to me as though "the last day" is the cut-off point. All the Father gives to Jesus will be raised up, the others will die:

John 5:28-29
New King James Version (NKJV)

28. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29. and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Homer




Homer,
The word translated as "condemnation" is "krisis" which is better translated as "divine judgment" and boils down to whether God leaves mercy available through judgment or only punishment. Re "the last day" it's a statement applicable to believers and no new information that everyone did'nt know already. Jesus will raise them up on the last day to a resurrection of life and unbelievers are raised up also on the last day to a resurrection of judgment, thus again boils down to what a judgment might entail.

[RICHinCHRIST]

The word translated as "condemnation" is "krisis" which is better translated as "divine judgment" and boils down to whether God leaves mercy available through judgment or only punishment.

I have thought about this lately... it seems that the dividing issue with UR (against the other two views) is whether God's judgment is solely punitive or if it's restorative. I have been questioning the purposefulness of punitive judgment in and of itself. It seems that there is no benefit from merely inflicting punishment vindictively. What joy could God have in such a punishment, or what purpose could He see it accomplishing?

I'll give you an example. A couple days ago I was talking with a couple co-workers and someone made a comment about how a specific co-worker of mine and myself were different people. The co-worker who was compared with me commented and said, "Yeah, I guess the main difference between us is that I'm not going to heaven like Rich but I'll be going to hell. There's no hope for me!" Then I replied, quite hastily, "Well, maybe you'll go to heaven after you go to hell". He replied, "What do you mean?" "Well, not all Christians think that Hell is a never-ending place of punishment, but that it's also a place of correction so you can change your mind". He then said, "Change my mind? Why would I have to change my mind?" I replied, "Because God created you, and you don't have the right to ignore the God who has given you life and breath. You owe it to God to love Him and be His child". When I said that, I looked over to him (because we were working and not in eye contact at the time), and if I had to guess his thoughts due to the expression on his face it would be, "Maybe I won't be able to escape God after all!" It clicked with me for a second, and I realized, wow, this guy probably never really understood the purpose of true repentance until right now. He was raised Catholic, and always makes comments bashing the church (as if Christianity is only Catholicism). He probably only knows dead religion, not a true relationship with God. After his facial expression faded, a few seconds later, he replied (as a good Confirmed Catholic), "When you die, you either go to heaven or hell. There's no second chance!" I suppose universalism didn't give him any license to sin, but rather he replied like a biblically literate traditionalist!

Will vindictive punishment really help the lost to understand why sin is bad? Will vindictive punishment accomplish any good? I've begun questioning these things since reading George McDonald's sermon "Justice". In that sermon, he eloquently explains why justice is not vindictive in nature, but restorative. If God has been wronged by sinners, is His loss satisfied by destroying them or endlessly torturing them? MacDonald argues no, but rather that true justice means that God gets what He deserves... the willful allegiance of sinners restored to Himself.

[Paidion]

I guess my question back to you would be if you can quote any passage that clearly states that subsequent to the judgement and sentencing of Revelation 20:11-15, those who are sentenced to the LOF can have their sentence lifted.

No. I know of no passage which clearly states exactly that. But here is a passage from Revelation 21 which seems to describe subsequent events in the New Jerusalem:

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, and its gates will never be shut by day--and there will be no night there. They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. (Rev 21:23-26)

I was wondering why the gates would always be open if no one was expected to enter. Indeed, it says the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Who are these kings? If they are God's people and the "judgment and sentencing" has already taken place, then why aren't they already in the City? On the other hand, if they are not God's people, how can they enter if they are roasting in hell forever? Why aren't the gates closed against them?

[Paidion]

I've begun questioning these things since reading George McDonald's sermon "Justice". In that sermon, he eloquently explains why justice is not vindictive in nature, but restorative. If God has been wronged by sinners, is His loss satisfied by destroying them or endlessly torturing them? MacDonald argues no, but rather that true justice means that God gets what He deserves... the willful allegiance of sinners restored to Himself.

Your whole post is outstanding, Rich!

Have you ever read George MacDonald's book The Hope of the Gospel? He also teaches the true gospel, that Jesus' death is a deliverance from SIN, and not merely a deliverance from hell.

[Paidion]

9. The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

It appears to me Jesus spoke clearly of a cut-off point beyond which no one will be saved:

I invite you to consider how the Greek word "απολλυμι" (translated as "perish" or “be destroyed”) is sometimes used in the scriptures, not as being annihilated, but being purified. This is illustrated in the following passage from I Peter 1:3-7

Praise be the God and Father of the Anointed Lord Jesus, who, in keeping with His great mercy has regenerated us for the purpose of a living hope, through the resurrection of the Anointed Jesus from the dead, into an incorruptible and undefiled inheritance reserved in heaven for you, who, by the power of God are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed at the last time. In this you exult, yet for a little while, if necessary, grieving in various trials in order that the testing of your faith, very valuable, gold being destroyed through fire, yet being tested, may be found for praise and glory and honour at the revealing of Jesus the Anointed.

Peter compared the testing of his readers' faith to gold being destroyed by fire. Now we all know that pure gold cannot be destroyed by fire. It can be melted, but cannot be destroyed (in the annihilation sense of the word). What then, did Peter mean? Did he not mean that gold in its original form (gold ore) can be destroyed by fire so that the pure gold can come forth? Was he not referring to the refining process? When we undergo various trials, our character can be refined.

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner‘s fire and like fullers’ soap. Malachi 3:2 RSV

Both fire and soap can purify. That is what the Lord can do for a person, and sometimes He does it through trials.

Someone may object that some translations refer to gold as being “perishable” in I Peter 3:7, and again in verse 18, where Peter clearly speaks of gold being perishable.

1 Peter 1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers.

However,Peter used a different word from that which he used in verse 7. The word is better translated as “corruptible”. The Greek word is the adjective “φθαρτος" which is derived from the verb “φθειρω". The Online Bible Lexicon gives the following note for the latter word:

In the opinion of the Jews, the temple was corrupted or "destroyed" when anyone defiled or in the slightest degree damaged anything in it, or if its guardians neglected their duties.

Thus gold can be corrupted in this sense, it can be scratched or dirtied, or altered in other ways. But pure gold cannot be “destroyed” in the sense of being annihilated, at least not by fire.

So those precious lost souls whom God loves will be judged and sent to a place of correction. They have been corrupted by their sin, but God's fire and soap can purify them so that they will emerge as refined gold.
They will never be annihilated. That would defeat God's redemptive purpose. All of God's judgments are remedial.

Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.

By the way, the Greek word for "lost" in this verse is none other than "απολλυμι".

[Homer]

steve7150 wrote:

Re "the last day" it's a statement applicable to believers and no new information that everyone did'nt know already. Jesus will raise them up on the last day to a resurrection of life and unbelievers are raised up also on the last day to a resurrection of judgment, thus again boils down to what a judgment might entail.

The passage quoted in John 6 is clear. In particular note 6:37-39:


37. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

The "all that" the Father gives Jesus (v. 37) is a neuter singular, "the strongest expression of totality" (John Peter Lange). All who will be saved are spoken of as a unit; the total mass of people who will have everlasting life will be raised up at the last day. The "last day" is the cut-off point.

[steve]

Hi Homer,

On a point not directly related to UR, but related to your post, I don't believe that "all that the Father gives to [Christ]" refers to the totality of those saved at any time. Jesus is using a term to refer to the faithful remnant among His Jewish hearers, who, before Jesus came, were already God's people, and now, with the arrival of the Messiah, were being given, or transferred, over to Him (clearly, in John 17:6). The expression refers to those in that generation, who, having already been faithful to the Father, prior to Christ's coming, were now becoming believers in Jesus (see John 5:38, 43-47). There is no evidence that those whom the Father "gave" Jesus ever refers to those who would come to Him in later generations.

[jriccitelli]

Matt you wrote that; "it seems that the dividing issue with UR is whether God's judgment is solely punitive or if it's restorative"
'Judgment' is a 'deserved penalty' that you bring upon yourself. If you sow to the flesh you will reap to the flesh.
I know you have made a distinction between 1. 'Christians' being 'purged' post mortem through punishment /and
2. Unbelievers who may be swayed to 'accept' (repent) post mortem through punishment.
1; Christians under go sanctification, purification, setting apart (Made holy) and even experience chastisment; but these are all experienced 'in Christ'. God does not punish his own.
Chastisment and punishment are always distinct from one another. If the christian suffers it is because he is indifferent to sin, and the world. As Christ was hated so they will hate us too. We do not develop our own righteouness through suffering, and we do not purify this flesh, we shall be changed when we are resurrected, a 'new' man, for we will 'put on Christ' ,and Christ suffered 'once' for all our sins.
2; Unbelievers under go 'punishment' this is Gods judgment.
The punishment could have been avoided by, becoming a 'christian', some people, for there 'own' reasons, do not 'want' to become His, and may never change there mind. Gods will is that they freely choose.

Matt you stated; "It seems that there is no benefit from merely inflicting punishment vindictively. What joy could God have in such a punishment, or what purpose could He see it accomplishing?"
I thought this was Todds statement again; You do accept that 'it is unjust to simply let a person commit a crime without any penalty or restitution', right. We only have two options for sin, accept Christs payment for sin before sentencing, or pay it off ourselves later. To pay it off ourself in hell is to reject Christ and His blood, and thus "there is no more sacrifice for sin".
Some people may wish to pay off their own debt if given a chance, and in the case of some who have lived somewhat righteously this may be their choice, this means they can choose to reject the cross and pay for their own sins.
If they fall in love with God after all that, maybe, but it seems a little late. I dont know what the motivation is, maybe the Law?

[Homer]

Hi Steve,

You wrote:

Jesus is using a term to refer to the faithful remnant among His Jewish hearers, who, before Jesus came, were already God's people, and now, with the arrival of the Messiah, were being given, or transferred, over to Him (clearly, in John 17:6). The expression refers to those in that generation, who, having already been faithful to the Father, prior to Christ's coming, were now becoming believers in Jesus (see John 5:38, 43-47). There is no evidence that those whom the Father "gave" Jesus ever refers to those who would come to Him in later generations.

I must disagree with the above. In Jesus' prayer, John 17, verses 1-5 are concerning himself. In v. 2 Jesus states that His father has given Him authority over all flesh (mankind). Then Jesus speaks of the subset of all flesh that the Father has given Him, perfect indicative, which is the same as the "gives me" in 6:37. Both Lange and Alford make note of this, referring from 6:37 to Jesus' prayer in John 17.

In 17:6, as you note, the verb changes to the aorist tense when the focus of Jesus' prayer switches to his present disciples.

John 17:1-6
1. Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2. as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3. And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4. I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. 5. And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Focus of prayer changes:

6. “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

Lange references the "all that the Father gives me" in 6:37 as being the same as Romans 8:29:

New King James Version (NKJV)
29. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Additionally Alford quotes Bengel's observation that in Jesus' discourses those given to Jesus by the Father are spoken of in the singular number and neuter gender whereas those who come to Jesus are spoken of in the masculine gender, and sometimes also in the plural number.

And Jesus made a statement in John 3:36 where the "shall not see life" is in the future tense - it will never happen. If there is no cut-off point reached at the last day then how can Jesus' statement be correct?

John 3:36
New King James Version (NKJV)
36. He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Which brings up another problem with the universalistic paradigm. Whatever happened to God's wrath? Jesus says God's wrath (#3709 orge, which speaks of anger and revenge) remains on the person.