Eternity in heaven, or on earth?

[steve]

Hi Paidion,

I personally have believed that the present world will be purged by "fire" (literal or figurative, I cannot say).

[psimmond]

Paidion,
I wonder if Isaiah's prophesy could be referring to the new Israel that was established after WW2. Perhaps the phrase "new heavens and a new earth" in Isa 65:17 is not meant to coincide with the event discussed in Peter's epistle. But rather Peter is using Isaiah's phrase to tell us about something far greater than what God revealed to Isaiah here.

The average lifespan now is close to 100 (about 80 and climbing) whereas during the time of Isaiah it was probably about 45-50 for men (maybe lower ). Also with the technology we have these days infant mortality has declined dramatically.

I realize right now Israel is not the safest place in the world, but the Jews there do see it as a safe haven especially after the pogroms and the holocaust (and all of the persecution that preceded these events.)

It seems to me that Isaiah's prophesy could be referring to present day Israel or more likely Israel in the near future after a significant peace treaty is signed.

I haven't studied this Isaiah passage, so I'm just tossing out thoughts off the top of my head (a dangerous thing to do )

[Paidion]

I see "the New Israel" (that is, "The Israel of God" of which Paul speaks) as the remnant of Israel which remained in Paul's day — id est, Christ's disciples. The disciples were later called "Christians". So I see the church of Christ as the true Israel.

From the beginning of the nation of Israel, there was always a remnant, relatively small, who were the true servants of God. That Israel has never ceased. It hasn't been replaced by the Church. Rather all true Christians comprise that same, true Israel who are submitted to God. The Church is the continuation of Israel.

The nation which was established in 1948 is called "Israel". But no nation can be called "The Israel of God". Even ancient Israel was not true Israel, though true Israel could be found within it. As Paul put it:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. (Rom 9:6-8 ESV)

The "New heaven and earth" must be something greater than the nation of Israel.

[Jepne]

An aside to Steve - I really like your piece on eternity on earth - it makes such wonderful sense. Thank you!

And Paidion - the "Israel of God" - very good.

It is not complicated, huh?

[psimmond]

Paidion, can you explain why you went from "I see the new Israel" as such and such (at the beginning of your reply) to "The 'New heaven and earth' must be something greater than the nation of Israel" (at the end of your reply)?

Using the word "must" implies that it is certain Isaiah's prophesy is referring to "'The Israel of God' of which Paul speaks." But how can you know this is certain?

[Paidion]

Paidion, can you explain why you went from "I see the new Israel" as such and such (at the beginning of your reply) to "The new heaven and earth' must be something greater than the nation of Israel" (at the end of your reply)?

I will try. I was trying to show that your idea that the New Heaven and Earth was fulfilled in the nation of Israel being established in 1948, is a low concept of an astounding prophecy. Where are the long-lived people? Where are the wolves and lambs eating together? Where are the other characteristics of a new heaven and earth? The reference seems more likely to refer to a new heaven and earth in conjuction with the Israel of God.

Using the word "must" implies that it is certain Isaiah's prophesy is referring to "'The Israel of God' of which Paul speaks." But how can you know this is certain?

No, this supposed implication was not my intention when I said, "The 'New heaven and earth' must be something greater than the nation of Israel." I simply meant that whatever the reference of the predictions of Isaiah's prophecy, the fulfillment of that prophecy has to be greater than the mere establishment of the nation of Israel in 1948.
In that day, the whole world will be vastly different from the way it has been up to the present.