Elders and the Husband of One Wife

[brody196]

Not entirely surprising.

So take heart, O disqualified: if you're unmarried and confuse people with your teaching and sometimes are harsh and quarrelsome and have no home to rule and have a poor reputation amongst outsiders - you could be an apostle!

Your rejection of Paul is nothing new, he dealt with that stuff from time to time(2 Cor 11).

Haters gonna hate.

[kaufmannphillips]

brody196 wrote:
Haters gonna hate.

Of course, Jesus and Paul were all sweetness and light toward people they disagreed with or disapproved of .

[brody196]

brody196 wrote:
Haters gonna hate.

Of course, Jesus and Paul were all sweetness and light toward people they disagreed with or disapproved of .

I'm curious...Given your disdain for Jesus and His Apostles, why would you frequent a forum such as this?

[steve]

Not entirely surprising.

So take heart, O disqualified: if you're unmarried and confuse people with your teaching and sometimes are harsh and quarrelsome and have no home to rule and have a poor reputation amongst outsiders - you could be an apostle!

kaufmannphillips,

I often enjoy your cynical comments, because they are witty and often fitting. In this case I am not aware of the reason for it. It seems that the idea of having one set of qualifications for one job and another set of qualifications for a different job somehow seems absurd to you. I don't understand this attitude. I would think it obvious that different jobs require different life experiences, job skills, degrees of mobility, etc., whether it is church work or secular work that is being contemplated.

I know you were once a church pastor, when you were a Christian. Perhaps you, like many people, are thinking of the leadership of a local congregation as being, essentially, the only ministry worth having. That is not a presupposition that I would share, and it clearly is not one that Paul shared. It may be that you would see things differently, but I am not sure what there would be in that difference of opinion that would inspire scorn or mockery.

[Perry]

[of kaufmannphillips]I know you were once a church pastor, when you were a Christian.

I was unaware of this.

kaufmannphillips,

Have you anywhere posted a brief biography? If not, would you be opposed to doing so, perhaps in another thread?

[Singalphile]

Many or most of the traits don't seem to be specific to the role of an elder. I'm not aware of any role in the church for someone who is inhospitable or given to wine.

OTOH, someone who is a bad teacher and a novice could still serve perfectly in a non-elder role.

So if "husband of one wife" just means "not a womanizer", then it can be grouped along with "hospitable" and "not given to wine", which would just seem to apply to all believers without regard to role.

But I can see the benefit in interpreting "husband of one wife" as a more strict standard. A 40+ year old bachelor status can/will raise questions and rumors. A man's ex-wife/wives could spread lies about a man's behavior. Unscrupulous people could even use a man's dead wife against him in various ways. If reputation and blamelessness is a concern, which it is, then it would probably be best for an elder to be presently married to his one and only wife.

It may be that an elder needs to be holy (like all Christians), a mature/experienced believer and a good teacher and a good caretaker (skills needed in the role of an elder), and also someone who is above even the appearance of evil inside and outside the church (since he will likely be regarded as a special representative of the church body).

[kaufmannphillips]

brody196 wrote:
I'm curious...Given your disdain for Jesus and His Apostles, why would you frequent a forum such as this?

I hold some aspects of Jesus and of Paul in positive esteem. Some other aspects, I do not.


For one thing, I participate in this forum to test myself. If there are aspects of my thought that need correction or refinement, wrestling may reveal that.

[kaufmannphillips]

steve wrote:
It seems that the idea of having one set of qualifications for one job and another set of qualifications for a different job somehow seems absurd to you. I don't understand this attitude. I would think it obvious that different jobs require different life experiences, job skills, degrees of mobility, etc., whether it is church work or secular work that is being contemplated.

I know you were once a church pastor, when you were a Christian. Perhaps you, like many people, are thinking of the leadership of a local congregation as being, essentially, the only ministry worth having. That is not a presupposition that I would share, and it clearly is not one that Paul shared. It may be that you would see things differently, but I am not sure what there would be in that difference of opinion that would inspire scorn or mockery.

Every person should have a direct role in some ministry; not every person should have a direct role in every ministry; there are many ministerial roles that are worthy of respect and honor.

That being said - both the Hebrew and Christian bibles are studded with persons who would have appeared ill-suited to their roles, yet nevertheless become heroes of faith. Fitness for ministry is not contingent upon one's resume or upon one's having a conventional skill-set.

Now, Paul is very often overrated in the church. But even those who hold him in high esteem should be able to see how aspects of his personal history and performance might not have recommended him for a prominent ministerial role.

All things considered, why doesn't Paul advise Timothy to be satisfied with the confirmation of the holy spirit in selecting overseers for congregations?

[kaufmannphillips]

Singalphile wrote:
But I can see the benefit in interpreting "husband of one wife" as a more strict standard. A 40+ year old bachelor status can/will raise questions and rumors. A man's ex-wife/wives could spread lies about a man's behavior. Unscrupulous people could even use a man's dead wife against him in various ways. If reputation and blamelessness is a concern, which it is, then it would probably be best for an elder to be presently married to his one and only wife.

It is worth considering mortality rates in the first-century Mediterranean. Many men might have lost their first wives to disease or childbirth or violence.

[Singalphile]

k-s wrote: It is worth considering mortality rates in the first-century Mediterranean. Many men might have lost their first wives to disease or childbirth or violence.

Perhaps so.