Alcohol & Welfare Programs: Topics on today's show

[Paidion]

We contribute deliberately each month to World Vision

Wow, Homer! You and I agree on something! We both support the needy through World Vision.

[jesusrules777]

Steve said:

"You simply launched into a tirade against some of your pet-peeves, even though nothing in the conversation to which you were responding had any connection to those peeves. You will note that you came in with guns blazing, accusing those who wish to be good stewards (me, apparently, and others who share with me such an interest) with having evil and selfish hearts."

Steve, your defensiveness speaks volumes. The fact that you would assume "evil and selfish hearts" was directed at you speaks volumes as well. "Guns blazing," "accusing?" Sounds like defensive language to me.

"However, I did answer you, calmly and biblically. This only got you more agitated."

Now you are deciding what I'm feeling? Where in the Bible are we told to TELL someone what they are feeling? Do you really believe you were calm and Biblical? If so, I'll certainly be lifting you up in prayer. Denial causes blindness.

"2) What percentage of your income do you contribute to the poor?"

Why would you place a stumbling block in my path by asking me to violate Scripture? I'm shocked that you aren't familiar with this passage: Matthew 6:3, 4 says: "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Why would you try to cause me to violate Scripture and lose my reward, as this is the second time you have asked me to do this? Didn't you say your response to me was Biblical?

Another post from Steve to jesusrules777 below:

"people addicted to alcohol deserve to be penalized and not receive provision, women on welfare are getting pregnant for money" "Please document that I said these two things."(Steve said)

Don't forget that you also said, "the government is stealing from us." Do you feel those statements were edifying, loving and Biblical?

"While you may consider this judgmental, I am not taking, at face value, your claim to being my "spiritual sibling." My siblings exhibit the Spirit of my Father. That is how they are recognized."

So are you saying that I have not exhibited the Spirit of my Father? If so, why do you say that? Why is it when I have shared that your words felt unkind, you have not asked for my forgiveness and apologized? Wouldn't that be Biblical?

[jesusrules777]

Singalphile said:

"I don't know if you'd agree with my previous two sentences because I don't understand your position."

My position is that the Bible clearly says we are to give to the poor and needy. The rich young ruler was even told to "give to the poor," in order to be following Jesus. If you study the Scriptures with regard to our giving to the poor and needy out of our own income, you will see that there are no conditions placed upon this giving. We are NOT called to judge the poor and only give to those we believe don't have certain sin or addictions in their lives. It is not possible for humans to know what is in the hearts of the poor and the Bible says it is what comes out of the heart which makes them unclean, not what they put into their mouth. (alcohol) If we judge a poor person's sin, this is sin in itself and not Biblical.

Steve's position is that the government is stealing from us, women on welfare are getting pregnant on purpose and he believes that people who are addicted to alcohol deserve to be penalized and he is advising that Believers not give them any provision which would help they to stay alive. Steve advises that Believers should discern which poor people would deserve provision. Steve feels that it is not wrong to drink alcohol as he says the Bible does not forbid drinking alcohol. He believes that if a person takes that drink and their body happens to become chemically addicted to what he is advising people they can drink, Steve believes they should be penalized and should not be provided for. So if a poor person listens to Steve's Broadcast and is told "the Bible says it is ok to drink alcohol," but if after that first drink his body becomes addicted, they deserve to be penalized and he is advising that Believers should not give them food, water, shelter, clothing etc. The Scriptures Steve gave, were about "church funds", NOT about a Believer's personal funds. Steve feels that providing for a "drunkard" would be enabling them in a negative manner. My belief however, is that giving to them would ENABLE them to stay alive long enough to get the medical help, healing and in turn become powerful vessels of the Holy Spirit to minister to other folks who have diseased bodies and bondages.

[steve]

Madame, you are out of your depth at this forum. This is a place for people to think about what others say, and also to think about what you say before posting. It is not a place to ventilate at other's expense. (I say that calmly and kindly, in case you cannot discern my tone).

Unless I am mistaken, I believe you were banned from this forum many months ago, when you were posting under another screen name. While I have no idea who you are, I recognize the spirit. It seems like that person was a divorced woman in the Seattle Area, who contacted me by email, leading me to inform her that I was seeing someone (who is now my wife). That woman then appeared on this forum with nothing but gratuitous, scathing (and totally undefined) accusations against my character. Several people attempted to engage her here, and to talk sensibly to her, only to become the objects of her scorn and insults.

If you are the same person, then I can expect you to make no attempt to answer people's questions to you, you will post the same points repeatedly, though refuted, will do little else but ventilate hostility toward me personally, and if anyone here, besides me, should be so bold as to tell you you are out of line, you will call them cult-followers of mine. Am I correct?

[jesusrules777]

Steve said

jesusrules777 and you have both argued for what no one is arguing against.

Are you saying that you are no longer arguing against giving to the poor unconditionally? Are you saying that you were wrong in saying that "women on welfare get pregnant on purpose, people with alcohol addictions deserve to be penalized and not receive provision and the government is stealing from us?"

Government welfare simply underwrites the whole lifestyle of the recipients, whether criminal or honest.

How do you know what goes on in the welfare office if you haven't ever received their help? Do you erroneously believe they just hand out money to anyone who says they are in need? If so, you are ignorant to the process. Didn't you mention on your Broadcast last week that someone wrote to you and told you not to talk about the government because you didn't know what you were talking about?

"What has been at issue here, from the first conversation on air that sparked this thread, is whether it is better to leave it to private donors to decide whose lifestyles to sponsor, or to let the government confiscate other people's funds and simply to underwrite the lifestyles of prodigals"

The tax dollars are not providing enough for those in poverty and I have been attempting to share how the Bible commands ALL Believers to give to the poor and the needy without judgement. It is not a matter of "leaving it to anyone" as it requires BOTH the government as well as Believers to provide for the poor and needy. The amount of monthly money given to poor single parents has remained the same for many years, even though the cost of living has increased. No one has lobbied for an increase in provision for the poor and in the last couple of years, there have been huge financial cuts in these programs. A parent with one child is expected to live on $440.00 per month. How is that possible? Can you see that the tax dollars can't even begin to meet all the needs. There is also a five year limit for cash assistance so if a single parent gets sick and has used the five years, there is NO help available for her or her children. Do we even realize how many single parents are living in their cars, shelters and tents because there is simply no one who is providing for them? These are not "drunkards," these are parents! I saw a news show the other day that broke my heart. It was about a single mom of two who had been trying to find a job for months. She was going everywhere applying and no one would hire her. She and her kids were being evicted so she tried being an escort because no one would help her. She ended up getting murdered by some sick guy and now her children have NO parents. This is happening all over our country because people who believe like Steve are judging the poor and needy.

Steve, what are you talking about with regard to calling me Madame and assuming I am someone whom you were previously threatened by? The Spirit you are recognizing could be the Holy Spirit attempting to convict you? Don't you see the pattern here? Why would you ban anyone from this forum who disagrees with you? It sounds like you said you did that a few months ago? Why would you even threaten to remove a person's voice? Is that loving and Biblical?

[steve]

Now I remember. Wasn't it dorianleigh?

[jesusrules777]

Who?

[steve]

Are you saying you are not dorianleigh?

[backwoodsman]

Now I remember. Wasn't it dorianleigh?

Yep, that's the one I was thinking of. Can't say for sure it's the same person, but it's certainly the same argumentative spirit, quickness to make groundless accusations, refusal to answer simple, non-confrontational questions about his/her position or document his/her accusations, and a few other things. The subject matter is different, but the writing style seems similar too.

[jesusrules777]

Why do you continually attempt to distract from the subject with regard to what you have said? You claim that I will not answer your questions, yet have you looked back at the posts on this thread, where I have asked you many, many questions which you refuse to answer? Yet, if you ask a question of me, I'm accused of all these behaviors with regard to not answering YOUR questions.

Your attempts to call me Madame, dorianleigh and whatever else you decide to call me are merely your attempts to refrain from answering my questions as well as being accountable for the words you have used.

Are you willing to answer my questions and take responsibility for your unkind words, or are you going to continue attempting to call me names and turn the focus on me?

You claim that I am somehow against you, yet did you read my first post in this thread which was in support of your stance on alcohol? Why do you have such a victim mentality whenever anyone disagrees with you and stands their ground. Why do you feel the need to turn this discussion into name calling and accusing me of being against you? I have been respectful in my responses to you and if I have repeated anything, it is because you are ignoring my questions. Why do you project your refusal to answer my questions on me? Why the hypocrisy?