Matthew 24 Inconsistent With Preterism

[Paidion]

The words of Christ according to Matthew, state that after the tribulation of those days, all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Is there any historical record indicating that the peoples of the earth saw Christ's return at or after 70 A.D.? Surely such a monumental event would have found its way into historical records! But not a word of it has been recorded by anyone anywhere.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. “From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near.
So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:29-34)

It seems that what leads people to the idea that all these events, including the visible return of Christ is the final sentence in this passage. However, the difficulty may lie simply in the grammar of the sentence. The verb in the expression "until all these things take place" is not in the future tense, but in the aorist tense. According to Royce Gordon Gruenler, whose short article is quoted at the beginning of chapter 22 in William Mounce's Basics of Biblical Greek, "The aorist is the indefinite tense that states only fact of the action without specifying its duration." He says that there are three possibilities. If we imagine, for example, a ball that has been thrown, the verb in the aorist tense may mean "let fly" (inceptive or ingressive), "flew" (constative or durative), or "hit" (culminative or telic).
Gruenler give the example of the angel Gabriel's words to Zechariah in Luke 1:20, "And now you will be silent and not able to speak until the day γενηται ταυτα." (all these things take place). But when we examine the account in verses 23-26, we see that Gabriel prophesies not only the birth, but the adult ministry of John the Baptizer. Yet Zechariah recovers his speech as soon as he writes the name of his infant son on a tablet (verses 62-62). So obviously Zechariah recovered his speech long before his infant son "turned many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God", for example. So Gruenler believed that the first part of verse 20 should be translated, "And now, you will be silent and not able to speak until the day that these things begin to happen ..." The things which had begun to happen was that Elizabeth bore a son, and Zachariah named him "John". The remaining parts of the prophecy did not take place until later — some of them much later.

Precisely the same Greek expression "γενηται ταυτα" is found Matthew 24:34. Thus it may be that the sentence ought to be translated, "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things begin to take place." It may be the things our Lord prophesied in Matthew 24 only began to take place before that generation vanished, for example, the destruction of the temple. It may be that other aspects of his prophecy continued to take place over the years and centuries:

For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.

And other aspects will take place just prior to the coming of Christ:

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
For as the lighting comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

How will the coming of Christ be like the lighting of the sun shining from east to west? When the sun shines, everyone is aware of it. Likewise, when Christ returns, everyone will be aware of it. "Every eye shall see Him." It won't be some secret "rapture" where only the saved will know it. He won't be hidden in the inner rooms. It will be obvious to all, and many will fear in that day. It will be the greatest event in all history! It will not go by unnoticed as was the supposed "coming" which is thought to have occurred in 70 A.D. or shortly afterward.

[steve]

Hi Paidion,

It sounds like you are taking on the full-preterists here. They may answer you. However, even partial preterists mostly (not universally) believe that Matt.24:29ff are referring to AD70. I myself think it likely.

It may be that it has been too long since these points have been discussed here, so that some basic positions have been forgotten. Preterists (of my variety, at least) see many different events as being described, in different contexts, as God or Christ "coming." While agreeing that there will be a final coming in judgment at the end of the world, I recognize many other events as being sometimes referred to as His coming, when it is not a reference to His second coming at all.

For example, God "came" with clouds to Egypt in the Assyrian invasion (Isa.19:1). God "returned" to Jerusalem after the exile (Zech.1:16). In fulfillment of His threat, He "came" to Ephesus and removed their lamp stand (Rev.2:5) and to Sardis (Rev.3:3) because they failed to "watch." He promised to "come" to any who would hear His voice and open to Him in Laodicea (Rev.3:20). He also "came" in some sense within the lifetime of some of His disciples (Matt.16:28) and before they would have had time to evangelize all the villages of Israel (Matt.10:23).

These are only a few of the varied events which are said to have been God, or Christ, "coming." None of them were what we call "the second coming," which is reserved for the end of the world and will be accompanied by the resurrection of the dead.

[Paidion]

Okay, I have no problem with God and Christ coming in various senses on various occasions. But what about the passage in question which you see as "likely referring to 70 A.D."? Or is it only verse 29 which refers to 70 A.D. All of the events are said to take place (or begin to take place) before that generation passed away.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates. Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. (Matthew 24:29-34)

Did all the tribes of the earth see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory? There's no historical record of those many people seeing Him coming in 70 A.D. And did the angels "gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"?

[Homer]

Thanks Paidion; interesting thoughts. I'm partial preterist (I think).

[jriccitelli]

I have been hearing the arguments for Preterism, and every one of them remind me of the attempts of the end times prophets who have been trying to read current events into Revelations, sure we should watch but 'like the coming of summer', which no observer could 'argue' about logically as about to happen once it is evident (last week it happened) I think the fulfillment of Matt 24 will be pretty obvious to those who are aware. The 'sign' of His coming will be rather obvious, just as the coming of summer, so I would think that the actual event itself would have to be even 'more obvious' than the 'sign'.

No one argues over whether or not summer came and went, I do not think there could be any argument over whether Christ Himself has already come, if he really did, just as it wouldn't make sense to argue over whether or not summer had come and gone.

It seems that in order to make Matt 24 fulfilled (although admirable to think we need to defend Christ's prophecy) we have to talk ourselves into believing it despite any evidence. I am quite amazed at the accounts in Josephus that really do seem to correlate well with Revelations judgments, yet there are not enough. I want to study the history surrounding Josephus more - but the fact that Jesus is not here now visibly would kind of assure me that it may have only been a warning.
The Bible tells me that I need 'two' witnesses, and as authentic as Josephus is he is only one witness. I think God would have more of a witness than that. I also have not assured myself that Josephus was not tampered with more that we are already aware of.

To me a lot of damage is done to tons of other scriptures once preterism is attempted to be read back into scripture.

As much as I do not lean on the early Fathers for doctrine (since you can usually find one or two to defend 'any' sort of doctrine) you would think the second coming and a fulfillment to Johns Apocalypse would have a dramatic effect on the Church Fathers opinions and view, but I do not see anything in the early church that would suggest there had been a fulfillment of Johns prophecy (you may add any information I am missing on this, but I would think such a fulfillment would have been monumental to them).

God came to me once too, and is with me, but Christ certainly has not made - His Second Appearing - to me, nor has Christ bodily appeared to me. 'That Great Day' is a cataclysmic event that will stun and rock the world, and I think no Theophaneia could have been understood yet, of 'That Great and Terrible Day'.

I do not understand why the first tribulation of the first century could not be understood as a 'warning' of things to come in the end, which when reading the Apocalypse it seems 'much' worse than what happened in the first century.

The persecution and great fear was already happening when John wrote this, so it wouldn't seem like much of a prophecy if the events only got a bit worse than the way it looked as if they were already going, that is if we spiritualize a lot of John's vision. It reminds me of Mormons believing and making a big deal out of Josephs Smiths Civil War prophecy when the newspapers had already begun talking of a war before hand and it looked as though it was a possibility, not too impressive.
I do not think anyone will be able to wonder whether the Apocalypse has happened, or not.

[Singalphile]

Full preterism tests my limits of credulity but no more than the futurist/dispensational view does.

As a tentative partial preterist, I would say that "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" is a statement about his coming in judgement, similar to the OT passages Steve quoted. Also reminds me of Mark 14:62:

"I am,” said Jesus, “and all of you [Lit. and you] will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
Mark 14:62 (HCSB)

(What does "verseblock" do and how?)

And "all the tribes of the earth/land" likely refers to Israel, or it could plausibly be the kind of hyperbole seen in other judgement pronouncements.

That makes sense to me... more sense than saying "this generation" means the human race or the Jewish people or that generation, at least.

"Begin to take place" may be a plausible or even better translation, but I don't think it would change very much, as I understand it.

I would think that all of you have listened to Steve's lectures on this subject if it's a topic that interests you, and if he didn't' make you at least lean partially partial preterist, then I don't suppose that any other person will... which is fine.

[steve]

Every one of the tribes of the land certainly observed the judgment that fell upon their nation...and mourned.

The angeloi (messengers) of God—Christian evangelists and missionaries—were then scattered throughout the whole world with the gospel to gather the elect from the four compass points of the earth ("the four winds").

All fits for me.