"Lordship Salvation"

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Paidion
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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:04 pm

Hi Homer,
I am not ignoring your post, nor have I forgotten it. If you already believe in penal substitution, then your post seems to back that up. I can well understand that since I held to that view throughout my teen-age years.

It wasn't until I was about 25, that I began to see that the real reason Jesus died was to deliver us from sin and that any deliverance from hell was but a side-benefit. I began to see that, right from the days of our first foreparents Adam and Eve, God wanted righteousness not sacrifice. He wants us to be actually righteous and not merely positionally righteous. And this comes about not by self-effort alone, but by our coöperation with the enabling grace of God — made possible by the magnificent sacrifice of His Son Jesus. I will reply to your post soon, explaining how I understand the scriptures you quoted, from the position of seeing Christ's sacrifice as a provision for assisting us to become what God intends us to be — His righteous children.
JR wrote:Paidion, I guess your difficulty is that you do not hear (or believe) Moses and the Prophets.
What "difficulty" do you suggest I have? I have not expressed any "difficulty" except with your penal substitution view which did not exist in the first or second century of Christianity. I certainly believe the words of David which he indicated that Yahweh spoke:
Sacrifice and offering you have not desired, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required. (Psalm 40:6 ESV)
Sacrifice and sin offering is not going to appease the Creator. He is not going to cover sin and make it okay because of sacrifice. But what does God require? He has given his people "an open ear" to hear His words, his commands concerning righteous living and in serving others.

Here is what Yahweh spoke through Jeremiah:
For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.’ (Jeremiah 7:22,23)
So clearly God wants obedience rather than sacrifices.

John 3:36 follows about 700 pages of warnings and of Judgment. It's hard to miss.
Yes there are many warnings about disobedience throughout the Old Testament as well as Jesus' teachings.
And John 3:36 which you say follows reads as follows:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. [ESV]
Yes "ἀπειθεω" is mistranslated as "does not believe" in several versions. The word for "believe" is "πιστευω". But those who translate " ἀπειθεω" as "does not obey" or its equivalent "disobeys", "is not subject to", or "does not yield to", are many. They include: ASV, Darby, ESV, Murdoch, Rotherham, RSV, Revised Webster, Weymouth, and NASB. Are all these translators incorrect? As one who has studied Greek, I affirm "does not obey" is a much more accurate translation than "does not believe". Interesting also is the fact that the translations I checked which render it as "does not believe" (King James, NKJV, Douay, WEB, and YLT) do translate the same word as "does not obey" in Romans 2:8!

However, I want to be perfectly honest here. The word actually means "does not allow oneself to be persuaded by". However, this does not make much diffence to my view of the glorious sacrifice of Christ. For if one does not allow himself to be persuaded by Christ to be His disciple (and Christ said a person CANNOT be His disciple unless he forsakes all [his self-serving life] and follows Him) then the wrath of God will remain on him [as long as he continues with his self-serving life]. The NKJV actually translates "ἀπειθεω" as "not persuaded" in Acts 17:5.
Paidion

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by Homer » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:08 pm

Hi Paidion,

I do not wish to overwhelm you with questions but you wrote:
I have not expressed any "difficulty" except with your penal substitution view which did not exist in the first or second century of Christianity.
From the Epistle to Diognetes, circa 130 AD:

"He Himself took upon Him the burden of our iniquities, He gave His own Son as a ransom for us, the holy One for transgressors, the blameless One for the wicked, the righteous One for the unrighteous, the incorruptible One for the corruptible, the immortal One for them that are mortal. For what other thing was capable of covering our sins than His righteousness? By what other one was it possible that we, the wicked and ungodly, could be justified, than by the only Son of God? O sweet exchange! O unsearchable operation! O benefits surpassing all expectation! that the wickedness of many should be hid in a single righteous One, that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors!"

Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 1, p. 28

Sounds like penal subsitution, satisfaction, imputed righteousness, and justification all rolled into one!

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:40 am

Greetings Homer,

Yes, I recall when I first encountered that passage. I was in my early twenties at the time, was a fundamentalist, and believed in penal substitution. I was dismayed because so many churches were "modernistic" and didn't teach trusting in the finished work of Christ as the means to eternal life (which I took to mean salvation from hell to eternal life in heaven). I was interested in early Christian writings, thinking that they would give a deeper insight into early Christian understanding the New Testament writings. I was puzzled because I didn't find the way of salvation in those early writings as I understood it. Then I encountered the passage which you quoted from the letter to Diognetus, a non-Christian. "Yes!!! I was excited! My fundamentalist understanding was taught in the early years of Christianity after all! I shared my finding with the brethren of the fundamentalist assembly with whom I was fellowshipping at the time. They heartily added "amen" to the reading.

Actually when I wrote the words "...penal substitution view which did not exist in the first or second century of Christianity", I wondered whether someone familiar with the letter to Diognetus would bring up that passage. When I respond to your earlier post, God willing, I will include this passage and explain it from my present understanding of Christ's sacrifice.

Thank you for bringing that up. We should examine every early writing and every scripture in our search for truth and reality. Are you aware of any other early Christian writing which you consider to express penal substitution? If so, I should like to become aware of it.

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:10 pm

The people gave the sacrifices that God demanded believing would accept them by faith. The Old Testament Saints were saved by Faith too, they believed the animal sacrifices were the satisfaction God demanded. As God 'did' demand them. Even Abraham's offering was accepted because it was mixed with faith (although done out of fear of God, the beginning of knowledge). And all were only the shadow of the reality - 'Jesus the lamb of God'.

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:17 pm

Paidion, I am sure it is because we were discussing the Greek translation of words in the NWT thread, that you thought that I was talking about the words in John 3:36 when I said "But those who do not 'believe' will face the wrath of The Lamb"

Actually I was just surmising what I understand from the Bible as a whole, and not referencing any specific verse.
And yet this is precisely what I mean when I say that it seems that you are not taking the whole of the scriptures as the context for each word in scripture.
Singular words cannot by themselves mean much, they depend upon others for clarity.
Words mean nothing unless given some kind of context.
The Bible is big enough to define its own words, and this is the reason we have such a big Bible and plenty of stories 'to give definition' to the Bibles own words and meanings.
So when John or Jesus 'Believe', it may include obey because this is what you do if you believe.
And when Jesus says I have come so that you may have life, He means this life, the next life, it means salvation, sanctification, etc. Death means in this life the the next life, it would get tiresome to keep repeating everything you mean with every sentence you speak.

I use a NASB mainly, so I would not have immediately realized that the KJV reads 'believes not' like you said. In fact all the translations I use have 'not obey/disobey', but that’s the point, John (the Baptist) meant 'all of the above', everything Jesus has said before, and everything he will say after, if you do not 'believe' you will not 'obey'.
'We' can't know for sure what John the Baptist was emphasizing specifically, but we do know what Jesus emphasized, and that was 'Belief' (Pisteuo). And John (The Baptist) said we must obey Jesus.
John (the writer of John) seems to think of this as meaning to believe/trust, as John writes quite similarly in 1 John;

'The one who believes (pisteuōn) in the Son of God has the testimony in himself; the one who does not believe (pisteuōn) God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning His Son'

(So John (the writer/Disciple) seems to understand this as believes.)

So back to your comment; 'But nowhere is it written that Jesus saves us from the wrath of God. It's all about being saved from SIN'

Jesus saves us from 'everything' that’s what a Savior does. All of the above, all proceeding, and all after. In the Old Testament they were saved from animals, Egyptians, and their enemies. Ultimately yes we are also saved from ourselves, and our sins;

"Behold, I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, And he who believes in Him will not be disappointed."7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "The stone which the builders rejected, This became the very corner stone," (1Peter2;6-7)

'This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. (1 John 3:23)

(My computer is acting odd, so it was hard to type this the way i wanted)
Last edited by jriccitelli on Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:32 pm

Psalm 16 reads; Preserve me, O God, for I take refuge in You. 2 I said to the LORD, "You are my Lord; I have no good besides You"

Paidion said on Sunday Oct 28; I know this paradigm only too well! As a teenager and a young man, I believed it, taught it, and tried to urge others to “get saved” in the manner I described in the previous paragraph, although I was somewhat confused as to the logistics of getting saved from God's wrath, as there were several somewhat differing ways of doing this according to these teachers. I mention five of them in the previous paragraph'

Few people understand this, so you are right, many people confess their sins and make Jesus their Savior without having a meaningful, authentic, salvation
I too don’t understand 'everything' about salvation, but I do 'want' to understand more.
And this seems to be what the psalmist says; But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night. (Psalm 1:2)
Salvation is like love, you can say it with one word, but spend forever discovering love and dissecting it's parts.
Salvation, Lordship and Faith are well defined in the Psalms;
Hear a just cause, O LORD, give heed to my cry;
7 Wondrously show Your lovingkindness,
O Savior of those who take refuge at Your right hand
From those who rise up against them.
8 Keep me as the apple of the eye;
Hide me in the shadow of Your wings
9 From the wicked who despoil me,
My deadly enemies who surround me.
10 They have closed their unfeeling heart,
With their mouth they speak proudly.
11 They have now surrounded us in our steps;
They set their eyes to cast us down to the ground.
12 He is like a lion that is eager to tear,
And as a young lion lurking in hiding places.
13 Arise, O LORD, confront him, bring him low;
Deliver my soul from the wicked with Your sword,
14 From men with Your hand, O LORD,
From men of the world, whose portion is in this life,
And whose belly You fill with Your treasure…
15 As for me, I shall behold Your face in righteousness;
I will be satisfied with Your likeness when I awake. (Sounds like what Jepne was taking about) (Psalm 17:7-15)

David was saved, David continued to be saved, David will be saved. David trusted his Lord to save him the first time, and David's salvation experiences causes david to trust his Lord to save him over and over. David's faith grows, David's obedience grows and improves. And David is trained throughout in the ways of righteousness, resulting in David being made righteous - because of David's trusting in the Lord, and as a result of Davids growing love for God and Gods words.


A Psalm of David the servant of the LORD, who spoke to the LORD the words of this song in the day that the LORD delivered him from the hand of all his enemies and from the hand of Saul. And he said,
1 "I love You, O LORD, my strength."
2 The LORD is my rock and my fortress and my deliverer,
My God, my rock, in whom I take refuge;
My shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.
3 I call upon the LORD, who is worthy to be praised,
And I am saved from my enemies.
4 The cords of death encompassed me,
And the torrents of ungodliness terrified me.
5 The cords of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me.
6 In my distress I called upon the LORD,
And cried to my God for help;
He heard my voice out of His temple,
And my cry for help before Him came into His ears.

If you don’t believe you do not call upon the Lord, it's whoever call's.

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by jeremiah » Sat Nov 10, 2012 2:21 pm

hello John,
"If you don’t believe you do not call upon the Lord, it's whoever call's."

could you unpack that I'm not sure what you mean. and also I'm curious as to what you think David is describing in the portion of the last psalm you quoted. what sort of salvation I mean.

grace and peace.
Also unto thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Homer wrote:Righteousness, or justification, is either imputed to us or inherent in us. I do not see how it can be both. Are we righteous in God's eyes because we do righteous things or are we righteous because the things we do flow from our faith - they are an expression of our faith? There are unbelievers who (actively) do more good things than some Christians. Are these unbelievers righteous in God's sight?
We are righteous in God's eyes, after we have entered the narrow gate and travel the difficult road that leads to life. When we are on that road, we trust that God will enable us to eschew evil and live righteously through the sacrifice of his Son. Then we coöperate with His enabling grace (Titus 2). God wants a real righteousness not a pretending one — not a so-called covering, a robe of “righteousness” which we wear to shield us from God's eyes so that when he looks on us he does not see our sin but Christ's righteousness. From the beginning He wanted righteousness, not sacrifices and offerings. Yet, God is so gracious that He will accept the offerings which the immature present to Him. He accepted Abel and his offering. Why did He not accept Cain and his offering? Preachers will tell you that the reason was the Cain offered vegetables instead of meat. Is that what God told Cain when he got angry with God for not accepting him and his offerings? No. God said, “Cain why are you angry? If you do well will you not be accepted? But if you do not do well, sin is couching at your door but you must master it.” Yes, God wanted righteousness from the beginning. Throughout the OT, he told the Israelites not to take advantage of the poor and the widows, but to support them, to be kind to strangers, etc. In the NT, Christ and His apostles instruct us to love others — even our enemies.
I believe the Old Covenant has been done away. We are under a new covenant, the Royal Law, the Law of Christ. Are we righteous because we are in compliance with a law that has some new commands and new things to do?
Yes, if we behave righteously we ARE righteous. The apostles did not teach “positional righteousness”, not even Paul in Rom 3 and 4. That idea is a mere interpretation base on the way current Protestantism, especially fundamentalism, has conditioned us. Rather Paul taught actual righteousness. (Romans 2)

The apostle John, also wrote:

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. (1 John 3:7 ESV)

I can't imagine a clearer way of saying it. I can't imagine John or Paul either saying that we can be counted as righteous by believing without doing any righteous deeds. James also clearly indicated that faith without works is a dead faith. “Can that [kind of] faith save you?” he asked.

However, we won't succeed by mere self-effort. We will succeed only by coöperating with the enable grace of God made available through the sacrifice of Christ.
Paul said (Young's Literal Translation)
I do not make void the grace of God, for if righteousness be through law -- then Christ died in vain.
It's not “law” per se of which Paul is speaking, but thinking one can be righteous by trying to keep the law of Moses.

For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2 Cor 5:21, 6:1)

So God “made His Son to be sin” so that we might “become the righteousness of God.” Surely when we become “the righteousness of God” this is an actual righteousness which we possess and not merely “positional righteousness” (a concept invented by man and not found in the New Testament). Now you may reply that if “becoming the righteousness of God” is our actual righteousness, then it follows that Christ “being made sin” must mean that He was made an actual sinner. That sounds reasonable — until you examine the verse which immediately follows:

Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain. (2 Cor 6:1)

How do we “work together with Him? Is it not by coöperating with His enabling grace so that we, receiving this enabling grace because of the sacrifice of Christ, work righteousness? If we do not coöperate, but attempt to receive His grace in some other way, we have accepted it in vain. It does us no good unless through it enables us to be delivered from sin.
It seems plain enough to me that we can not make ourselves righteous by compliance with God's laws; we never keep them perfectly. It seems to me you believe we are righteous because of our effort to keep them - that is what I mean by "instrumental".
No, I have never written that nor ever implied that. I think that's an interpretation of what I have written based on the mind set of those who hold to penal substitution and who seem to think that if you don't believe salvation results “from faith alone” then you must believe it results from self-effort in good works. I don't know how I can make the Christolic and apostolic position more plain. Neither faith alone nor self-effort alone saves us from our sin.
But what about Paul and James on faith and works?
I don't think Paul and James are talking about two different problems.
I see no contradiction at all. Paul and James are concerned with different problems. Paul's concern is in regard to how we are justified. Paul does not deny the necessity of good works, nor does he set works in contradiction to faith as a means of justification. They do not exclude each other in practice, but we must be justified (saved) because we deserve it or by grace because we do not. I see no other option.
I have tried to bring forth another option, but you seem unwilling to accept it as such. But first we have to understand that “justification” is not the attribution of positional righteousness but the practice of actual righteousness. Then we will be in a position to understand how through faith we can be justified (“righteousified”). When we can trust God to grant us His enabling grace made possible through the sacrifice of Christ, the process of salvation can continue.

But you say (if I understand you correctly) that justification is a completed act and not a process. That is true when justification has particular meanings, and it seems the word is used in at least two different ways in the New Testament. I have just looked up the word (δικαιοω) in all places where it occurs in the New Testament. Here are the meanings which I discovered:

To Show to be Right or Righteous

This meaning was used in the days in which the NT was written, just as it is the usual meaning as used in modern times. For example, as a teacher, I was able to justify my approach to teaching if I could show that it was in accordance with the requirements of the local school board as well as the Department of Education.
The following passages seem to be using the word in that way:

Mt 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Lu 7:29 … and when all the people heard him, even the tax collectors justified God, having been baptized with the baptism of John.


This one cannot possibly mean either “to count God as righteous” (your meaning) or “to render God righteous” (my meaning) but rather “to demonstrate that God is righteous”.

Lu 10:29 … but he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, "and who is my neighbor?"

Lu 16:15 … and he said to them, "you are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts.

1 Tim 3:16 ASV And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the spirit, Seen of angels, Preached among the nations, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.


To Render Righteous (I don't think "justify" in the New Testament ever means "To count as righteous").

Ro 3:26 it was to prove at the present time that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies him who has faith in Jesus.

Or “that He Himself is righteous and that He makes righteous him who has faith in Jesus.”

Now here is a most misunderstood passage because inaccurate translations:

For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him with a view to righteousness." [that is, with righteousness as the goal]. Now to one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to one who does not work but trusts him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted with a view to righteousness. (Romans 4:3-5)

All too often, because of the incorrect rendering “counted as righteousness” implies that God will count him as righteous because of his faith alone, as if it said that his faith is counted as righteousness, that is, instead of righteousness. If that were the case, the preposition would be “αντι”, but it's not. The preposition is “εις” which means “into” or “with a view to”. So Abraham's faith was the first step into a life of righteousness, a process which would continue throughout his life.

Ro 4:5 ... but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted with a view to righteousness.

The same with us. When we entrust ourselves to Christ, believing that He will save us from sin, we are being “justified”, being rendered righteous. We don't struggle in self-effort to be righteous but simply trust in Him to grant us His enabling grace. The writer to the Hebrews instructed his readers how to access this enabling grace when we succumb to temptations to sin:

...for we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need. (Hebrews 4:15,16)

Ro 5:9 much more then, being justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


As we are being made righteous by the blood of Christ, God will not be angry with us, and need to correct us. For we are on the difficult road which leads to life, in the process of becoming righteous as God requires. Now some translations render this as “having been justified by his blood” on the basis that it is an “aorist” participle. But this is no basis for presuming that the action has occurred in the past. Here is what William D. Mounce, author of Basics of Biblical Greek has to say about the so-called “aorist” participle.
Most grammars use the term “aorist” participle because the participle is built on the aorist tense stem of the verb. This nomenclature is helpful in learning the form of the participle. However, it tends to do a serious disservice because the student may infer that the aorist participle describes an action occurring in the past, which it does not. It describes and undefined action. Because the participle is not in the indicative, there is no time significance to the participle. We suggest adopting the terminology “undefined participle” because it rightly emphasizes the true significance of the participle that is built on the aorist tense stem, its aspect. (William D. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek, Chapter 28, p. 252)
But an especially interesting verse in relation to the matter of justification is Revelation 22:11

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (King James and similarly NKJV)

The interesting part is that the King James and New King James using the Textus Receptus, have translated δικαιωθητω ετι (let him be justified still) as “let him be righteous still”. Clearly they understood the word as continuing in righteousness, an actual righteousness, not a positional righteousness.
Back to the "when was I saved?" question. As you know the use of the aorist tense in the Greek, particulaly the aorist indicative, points to an event that has occured, a "passing from death to life". There is a point in time when we are "saved" or "justified" when before that point in time we were not.
There is indeed a point when we enter the narrow gate of salvation, when we begin on the difficult road which leads to life. But in so beginning we must persevere.

For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. (Hebrews 3:14)

So there was a time when we were “justified” or had gone through the narrow gate “when before that point in time we were not.” But we were not “saved” at such a time. Rather we began the process of salvation. I don't think that means very much unless we stay on the difficult road. We should not be content with a false sense of security because we have been “justified”. Indeed, if we don't persevere, we will be in a worse state than we were prior to our “justification”.

And we read in 2 Peter:

For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. (2 Peter 2:20)

Jesus taught similarly concerning those who began to be His disciples but did not continue. He used this illustration:

For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.’ (Luke 14:28-30)

Also:
Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.” (Luke 9:62)

Since this post is already pretty long, I'll postpone discussing the letter to Diognetus.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by Homer » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:56 am

Hi Paidion,
The preposition is “εις” which means “into” or “with a view to”. So Abraham's faith was the first step into a life of righteousness, a process which would continue throughout his life.

Ro 4:5 ... but to him who does not work but believes on him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted with a view to righteousness
Eis is primarily used to denote movement or progression from one place, state, or condition into another. This is easily seen, for example, by looking at the list in Wigram's Greek concordance of how the word is used and translated in Matthew's gospel. In your quotes above, it would be consistent to translate the preposition in a way that denoted progression, or movement, of the person "who does not work (attempting to earn) but believes" into a new state of righteousness. Translating it "with a view to" only serves to muddy the waters.

I wrote:
Back to the "when was I saved?" question. As you know the use of the aorist tense in the Greek, particulaly the aorist indicative, points to an event that has occured, a "passing from death to life". There is a point in time when we are "saved" or "justified" when before that point in time we were not.
To which you responded:
There is indeed a point when we enter the narrow gate of salvation, when we begin on the difficult road which leads to life. But in so beginning we must persevere.


For we share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end. (Hebrews 3:14)
I have no disagreement with you regarding the necessity of perserverence.

So there was a time when we were “justified” or had gone through the narrow gate “when before that point in time we were not.” But we were not “saved” at such a time. Rather we began the process of salvation. I don't think that means very much unless we stay on the difficult road. We should not be content with a false sense of security because we have been “justified”. Indeed, if we don't persevere, we will be in a worse state than we were prior to our “justification”.
When you say "we were not 'saved' at such a time. Rather we began the process of salvation" we may be talking about different things. I agree with you that we must persevere, be "faithful until death". But put another way, will the person who was justified at a point in time and then immediately dies go to heaven or no? Is such a person "saved" or lost?

Jesus taught similarly concerning those who began to be His disciples but did not continue. He used this illustration:

For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation, and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build, and was not able to finish.’ (Luke 14:28-30)
But if Jesus' death was to enable us (empower us) to "build a tower", how would we be unable to finish? It seems to me in your system Jesus' death is not always sufficient.

I have another question which may help to clear thinks up. In your view when you reference Jesus' death as an "atonement" (a seeming misnomer), is the act on his part directed to God or towards man? In this I mean is the primary purpose "Godward" or "manward"? I realize it can have secondary effects on the other party.

You see Christ's sacrifice as serving somehow to empower us to overcome sin. Is this because it has a direct effect on man or does it somehow enable, cause, motivate, encourage, etc. God to do something that He would otherwise be unable or unwilling to do for us?

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steve
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Re: "Lordship Salvation"

Post by steve » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:24 am

It may be strange for some to hear this, but doctrine of the atonement is a subject that I have purposefully neglected more than many others. Since there are four or five views of the atonement out there, which Christians hold, I have assumed (with C.S. Lewis) that the actual manner in which Christ's death saves us is for God to know—and for us to find out, if we are sufficiently curious about it—but our duty is not so much to dissect it as to personally participate in its virtues and benefits. I find it interesting that the apostles' sermons in Acts do not present any specific view of the atonement, but people got saved hearing them anyway.

Lewis gives the example of eating and benefiting from food without necessarily knowing exactly how the nutrients nourish the cells and strengthen the body. Knowing these details is not prerequisite to the receiving of the benefits (though, of course, the more we learn about nutrition, the more likely we are to eat wisely—so I think the analogy is not perfect).

Repenting of one's self-centered existence and entering into a trusting and faithful relationship with God, under the lordship of Christ, seems to be what is necessary in order to be saved. Somewhere in the background, there is (what is for me) the "mystery" of the transaction at Golgotha. I am glad God understands it, and that it truly works, but understanding the mechanics of it has always been, for me, a low priority.

This is partly because it is complicated, and partly because I have not seen how understanding it will enhance my discipleship (that doesn't mean that such understanding would not enhance my discipleship—I just have not yet perceived how it would). I was raised with the penal substitution view, and was amazed, several decades ago, to learn that it cannot be found in the early church writings prior to Anselm. To me, it seemed (and still seems) to have direct scriptural support.

On the other hand, there clearly are verses that speak of other aspects of Christ's death—verses that sound supportive of the Christus Victor view, the Moral Government view and of the Moral Influence view (and perhaps others, as well). All my adult life, I have seen and accepted these verses as revealing one or another aspect of the mystery of the atonement, and have never understood why I should be required to choose one aspect from among them, and to reject the others.

What reason could possibly be given for limiting ourselves to one narrow view of the atonement, when many valid aspects may coexist? Why do we eat food? Does it not serve various functions? It nourishes; it satisfies the pangs of hunger; it is a sociable activity; it pleases the palate...must I pick only one of these, or is it okay if I accept all of the benefits simultaneously? Rather than saying there are four views of the benefits of eating, I would be more inclined to say there are four excellent advantages of eating. I have never understood how this matter of the atonement is different.

I actually appreciate Paidion's position on the atonement, though I also hold to the view he is denouncing. I am not sure why, if the scriptures should allow, I might not embrace Paidion's view as well as that which I have always held. I am not averse to changing my view, but I do not find it deficient on scriptural grounds. I also see Paidion's view as having merit.

While I agree with you, Paidion, that the Bible speaks of the requirement of righteous living, and that "positional righteousness" is not a term found in scripture, I wonder how you would understand God's forgiveness of sinners. I think I remember reading something from you on this, but I can't remember exactly. My thought is, isn't the forgiveness of sins (the cancellation of past debt) sort of the same thing as "positional righteousness"? If you owe me something and neglect to repay, you stand in a position of guilt. If I forgive you of the debt, then you no longer owe the original debt, and stand in a position of "no guilt" in relation to me. Though you have not actually repaid the debt, you are regarded the same as if you had. Isn't this something that could be called "positional righteousness"?

Now I am not sure what you believe about fiat forgiveness. It may be that you do not accept my premise about that. Or it may be that your answer (like mine) would be, "The man forgiven by God of past sins stands positionally righteous with reference to that past debt, but is nonetheless expected to recognize his ongoing debt to live to please God." That is, forgiveness of the past does not eliminate obligations concerning the future. I don't know if this resembles your view or not. It resembles mine.

By the way, it seems to me that this whole atonement discussion has infelicitously sidetracked the discussion of Lordship Salvation.

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