"Lordship Salvation"

[Paidion]

When I hear people pray, they often begin with 'Lord…', I assume they mean it, I don't know.
When I pray I say 'Lord', and I am usually convinced I am communicating with Jesus.
So if a person calls 'Jesus Lord' they consider Him Lord, if you do not consider Him Lord - and yet you are saying so - you really do not know what you are talking about, or who you are talking too.

Jesus cannot be Lord of your life if you do not believe that Jesus is Lord /God (I didn't say saved), because there is only One Lord. You may not understand His Deity, or even considered it to be saved but once confronted with the decision you have to pick 'Jesus is God' otherwise you have two gods.

Paul didn't teach this. He taught that there is one God — the Father. He didn't teach that Jesus was that one God, but rather that He was the one Lord. He said that the one God created everything, and that everything was created THROUGH the one Lord, Jesus:

For us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, AND one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Corinthians 8:6)

One and one make two.

Jesus didn't teach that He was the one God. Rather, in His prayer to the Father, He addressed Him as "the only true God" and referred to Himself as someone OTHER than the only true God.

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Now the second century Christians ofter referred to Jesus as "God", but not in the sense that He was God the Father, nor in the sense that He was part of a Trinity, but in the sense that He was the Son of God, and therefore another One exactly the same as His Father ("the exact image of the Father's essence" (Hebrews 1:3), and therefore divine.

This is what John the apostle meant when He wrote Jesus "was God" in John 1:1. The word order and the omission of the article clearly indicates grammatically that He didn't mean that Jesus was the Father.

Also the only two extant manuscripts of John's gospel prior to 300 A.D. which contain John 1:18, papyrus 46 and papyrus 75, read that He was "the only begotten God". God the Father was not begotten. So if that tells you that there are two Gods, so be it. Jesus is God in this sense. But as He indicated in His prayer, the Father is the only true God.

[john6809]

JR, I am going to address just one statement of yours for now.

Seems to me you 'may' be dropping a meaning into 'enabling grace'. I understand this phrase to mean I can be 'assured' of the cross covering my sin, grace is not a power, or a thing that we cooperate with as if it was a thing. Grace is what God 'did'.

Read the following words of Paul and tell me whether he is "dropping a meaning into 'enabling grace'." Is he using the word "grace" to mean "assurance of the cross covering my sin" or does he say that it "trains us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age"? You say "grace is not a power." It sure seems that Paul speaks of it as a power which trains us to renounce impiety. And did Paul in this passage say that the "cross", the death of Christ, "covered our sin"? I don't think so. He gave the reason for Christ's death on the cross. He said that Christ " gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works." Concerning these truths, Paul also said to Timothy, "Let no one disregard you." "So JR, neither am I going to let you disregard me, as I set forth the truths about enabling grace which Paul taught. It is high time you let go of your stance of just being "covered" so that you don't go to hell, and accept the apostolic teaching that you need to be delivered from sin NOW in this life. "Behold NOW is the day of salvation (from sin)". Hell is not the thing to be feared. Sin is the thing to be feared. And unless we are delivered from it, we won't be delivered from hell either!

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. Titus 2:11-15

Well said Paidion. I enjoyed this post very much. It seems to be right in the middle of what I am learning right now.

[Tychicus]

Since God's grace appears to be connected with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross I cannot imagine that it appeared at some other time — though, on second thought, it may not have appeared until God raised Him from the dead. In any case, after the appearing of this grace it was available for enablement for all who would submit to the Lordship of Jesus, cöperate with it, and appropriate it through faith.

So the grace appeared with Jesus's sacrifice, or his resurrection. Okay, I'm with you there, but I might also count the totality of his incarnation, life, and teaching as well as his death and resurrection to be part of his "grace" that appeared at that time in history.

If the grace appeared at the time (or end) of Jesus earthy ministry, when and how did the "training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age" occur? And what does it mean by the "present age"?

[Homer]

Paidion, Tychicus, et al,

Tychicus asked:

Hi Paidion and JR,

I am curious about your understanding of when God's grace appeared, as described here in Titus. Not to distract your original question, but it might help give more perspective on that question.

And Paidion replied:

Since God's grace appears to be connected with Jesus' sacrifice on the cross I cannot imagine that it appeared at some other time — though, on second thought, it may not have appeared until God raised Him from the dead. In any case, after the appearing of this grace it was available for enablement for all who would submit to the Lordship of Jesus, cöperate with it, and appropriate it through faith.

Although not addressed to me, I will give my 2 cents: Grace came in the person of the Messiah, His birth, life, teaching, death, and resurrection, contra the dispensationalists (Schofield, for example) who claim grace came after the cross.

John 1:14-17, New King James Version (NKJV)

14. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.

15. John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’”

16. And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Although the word "grace" does not appear to occur in Jesus' words in the scriptures, a great example of this grace is seen in the story of the woman at the well, John 4, and elsewhere in His teachings, demonstrated more clearly, IMO, than anywhere else in the NT.

What does this grace and truth consist of? Is not it the Gospel itself, and isn't it found in Christ and inseparable from Him?

2 Timothy 2:1

2. You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

It seems to me that grace represents God's disposition toward us and not a general power separate from the person of Christ. That grace communicates moral power was a view held by Augustine. Luther came to believe that The Word is the means of the bestowal of grace. As in Paul, "the Gospel is the power unto salvation" Romans 1:16.

If we consider:

"For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us (Grk paideuo) to renounce impiety...."(Titus 2:11-12), we can certainly acknowledge that God may (and does) chastise us as He sees fit, and this is apparently the way the Greek word paideuo is used in regard to teaching or training, but how is that related to the atonement? What does Jesus' death and resurrection have to do with God "taking us out behind the woodshed"?

[jriccitelli]

Right on Homer, Grace came in the person of the Messiah, His birth, life, teaching, death, and resurrection. Homer noted that Jesus didn’t use the word grace much, true but to 'forgive' is what Jesus talked about all the time.

[jriccitelli]

Well I told you that you have two Lords, and you said it yourself.
"I am not of this world, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:23-24 / 58)

(Exodus 8)
10 Then he said, "Tomorrow." So he said, "May it be according to your word, that you may know that there is no one like the LORD our God.
(Joshua 22)
22 "The Mighty One, God, the LORD, the Mighty One, God, the LORD! He knows, and may Israel itself know. If it was in rebellion, or if in an unfaithful act against the LORD do not save us this day!
(1 Samuel 2)
2 "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.
(1 Kings 8)
60 so that all the peoples of the earth may know that the LORD is God; there is no one else.
(2 Chronicles 14)
11 Then Asa called to the LORD his God and said, "LORD, there is no one besides You to help in the battle between the powerful and those who have no strength; so help us, O LORD our God, for we trust in You, and in Your name have come against this multitude. O LORD, You are our God; let not man prevail against You."
(2 Chronicles 20)
6 and he said, "O LORD, the God of our fathers, are You not God in the heavens? And are You not ruler over all the kingdoms of the nations? Power and might are in Your hand so that no one can stand against You.
(Isaiah 43)
3 "For I am the LORD your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I have given Egypt as your ransom, Cush and Seba in your place.
(Isaiah 43)
11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me.
(Isaiah 45)
21 "Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.
(Isaiah 46)
9 "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
(Jeremiah 14)
22 Are there any among the idols of the nations who give rain? Or can the heavens grant showers? Is it not You, O LORD our God? Therefore we hope in You, For You are the one who has done all these things.
(Zechariah 14)
9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one.

I think Paul said;
For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him (1 Corinthians 8:5-6)
'…keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,15 which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords (1 Timothy 6:15)

Seems to me the Lord our God is One, anything else may not be Lordship salvation at all.
I also ask Jehovahs Witnesses; 'Who is your Savior?'

'Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.11 "I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me' (Isaiah 43:10-11)
"Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; For the LORD GOD is my strength and song, And He has become my salvation." (Isaiah 12:2)
Now the LORD saw, And it was displeasing in His sight that there was no justice.16 And He saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, And His righteousness upheld Him. (Isaiah 59:15-16)

If God know's of no Savior besides Himself, and God couldn't find no man or no one to intercede, then I wouldn’t suppose anyone but God could be our Savior, the choice is yours…

[jriccitelli]

So when grace appeared, well it brings to mind the incarnation, as well as the resurrection. The appearing of our Lord and Savior - Jesus - is the Grace that has appeared - so when Paul repeats the idea in 3:4 Paul uses the word 'chrestotes'; (kindness, goodness, gentleness);

'But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness…' (2Titus 3:4-5)

Is kindness a force? No
Is love a force? No

I see this (mistake / blasphemy) in Catholicism (and even to a degree in Calvinism), grace to Catholics is like points, or an object, or a power. It certainly is spoken of as if it is within Catholicism (How each person takes that I don’t know).
I am very familiar with the Word of Faith movement, and I see a exact duplicate here of this falsehood here in what Wof F teachers do with the word 'Faith' - they turn faith into a power or a force, an entity of it's own. Faith is not a power, either, this thinking then steps right into the occult, metaphysical and spiritist's realm when you assume there is a power you tap into other than God Himself. (Like Starwars; 'may the force be with you')
This is completely - demonic - there is no reasonable 'force' but God alone.

Love is not a 'thing', Patience is not a thing, Work is not a thing, Sin is not a thing, Wisdom is not a person, Faith is not a power, Grace is not a power, they are talked of in language 'as things' in order to get across an idea. Just because the Earth is spoken of as Gods footstool does not mean God has his feet up resting up on the north pole ('The trees clap their hands', etc. etc.).

'But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.8 This is a trustworthy statement; and concerning these things I want you to speak confidently, so that those who have believed God will be careful to engage in good deeds' (2Titus 3:4-8)

'…Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God' (Romans 2:4-5)

It is really no different when we express grace to someone, you can't have a good marriage without exercising grace to one another. My wife does not invoke some power or force when she forgives me, she knows she has been forgiven (in the Cross), and thus we forgive.

Forgiveness, grace, kindness, love... are expressions, acts, decisions, feelings, sure they are powerful but all things are in and from God, and there is no greater expression of love and grace and justice - but God Alone.

[Paidion]

Well I told you that you have two Lords, and you said it yourself.
"I am not of this world, Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:23-24 / 58)

Well, JR, I have clearly showed that Jesus and His Father are TWO. But you have not addressed what I have shown at all. It's just as if I hadn't written. Unless you respond to what I said, this is not a discussion. It is simply you stating what you believe, and me responding to that.

Take for instance the passage above. You seem to think this shows that Jesus is the Father. In the Greek, there is no "He". The phrase translated as "I am He" is "εγω ειμι". The word "ειμι" means "I am", and the word "εγω" means "I" (From which comes the English "ego"). When the two words occur together, they may mean "I am", with an emphasis on "I". For example, in John 6:35, Jesus says, "I am the bread of life." "I am" is the usual meaning of the phrase.

But the phrase "εγω ειμι" also has other meanings. Sometimes it means "It is I".

But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” (Luke 24:37-39)

Nevertheless, having said this, I do agree that no doubt it does sometimes mean "I am he." A good example is Luke 9:9. Jesus had just healed a man who was born blind, and the neighbours saw him marvelled and said, "Is this not the one whe sits and begs?"
Others said, "It is this one"; others, "That one is similar to him."
[The beggar] said, "I am he." ("εγω ειμι")

By saying "εγω ειμι", the formerly blind man was identifying himself as the one who used to sit and beg.

So the verse you quoted is probably correctly translated, "Unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins."

But what makes you think the "he" refers to the Father? How do you know that it doesn't refer to the Messiah, the long-awaited Messiah whom God had sent to His people?
Perhaps Jesus means, "Unless you believe that I am the Messiah, you will die in your sins."
This understanding seems to fit the words of John: "Whoever believes that Jesus is the Messiah is begotten of God." (1 John 5:1)

[Paidion]

If the grace appeared at the time (or end) of Jesus earthy ministry, when and how did the "training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age" occur? And what does it mean by the "present age"?

I would say this training takes place from the time we repent (have a change of heart and mind) and submit ourselves to the authority of Christ. Then the training begins, and continues until we die. This process IS our salvation from sin.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 )

I think "the present age" to which Paul referred was the age in which he lived. I think this age extends right until the second coming of Christ. After that, the next age begins — the Kingdom age in which Christ reigns here on earth. I am not sure when "this present age" began. Possibly with the birth of Christ — possibly with the ministry of John the baptizer who announced Christ and the Kingdom and preached repentance — possibly with the ministry of Christ who announced the kingdom and preached repentance — possibly with that special day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given.

Mark, in his memoir, indicated that "the beginning of the gospel" was the ministry of John the baptizer. (Mark 1:1-4)

[Tychicus]

Homer:

Grace came in the person of the Messiah, His birth, life, teaching, death, and resurrection, contra the dispensationalists (Schofield, for example) who claim grace came after the cross.

JR:

Right on Homer, Grace came in the person of the Messiah, His birth, life, teaching, death, and resurrection.

It seems everyone is agreeing that "grace" came in the person of the Messiah when He appeared in Palestine in the first century. Note that this grace was totally initiated by God, and not dependent on anyone's good works (except the faithfulness of Jesus the Messiah).

And I suspect everyone here also understands that this grace is available to all who "accept Jesus" (however you understand what "accepting Jesus" ought to entail).

Is anyone here saying that Titus 2:11, or Titus 3:4-7, or any other passage, speaks of "grace" appearing to a new believer on the day of their conversion, when they "accept Jesus into their heart", or are "regenerated", or whatever terminology you care to use?