Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

[steve7150]

I don't have a dog in this fight; of course I'm always open to new information, but I've already researched this topic and come to what I believe is the best balance of what Scripture has to say on it. Maybe I'm spitting into the wind here, but I'd just like to see these discussions be a little more productive, instead of just going around in circles forever.






For some reason CU seems to provoke way more of it's share of emotions than conditional immortality. I guess it may be viewed as unjust by some folks. I'm not a hard core CU , i just think postmortem repentence is highly likely for justice to be possible. Would you mind sharing your perspective?

[Homer]

Would you mind sharing your perspective?

My perspective from the beginning of this discussion is that the scriptures are full of threats and warnings about a coming judgement with awful consequences for those who do not repent; "he that believeth not will be damned". There is nothing in any of these many passages that indicate that the threatened judgement is not final. We are never told of repentance resulting in salvation for those in hell; repentance is presented as an urgent matter, something to be done now while there is time, before it is too late and the door is shut. These are Jesus' warnings, issued again and again. I understand Mark 16:16 to be Mark's account of the "great commission". We have no commission to preach or promote salvation in hell.

The preaching and defense of universalism as a legitimate doctrine is against Jesus' warnings about judgement. It can only attenuate His threats. And this is a message "itching ears" are eager to hear. The lost are not regenerated prior to faith, as Calvinists claim. Their God is self, and a second chance after death (actually an endless chance as advocated here) is all many, likely most, need to hear to continue on their merry way.

It seems to me the advocates and defenders of universalism would be wise to heed Origen's caution:

Origen against Celsus, BookXI, Chapter 26
But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made to all, nor to be uttered on the present occasion; for it is not unatteded with danger to commit to writing the explanation of such subjects, seeing the multitude need no further instruction than that which relates to punishment of sinners; while to ascend beyond this is not expedient, for the sake of those who with difficulty are restrained, even by fear of eternal punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin.

[steve]

My perspective from the beginning of this discussion is that the scriptures are full of threats and warnings about a coming judgement with awful consequences for those who do not repent; "he that believeth not will be damned".

"Damned" is a King James Version word that literally means "condemned." Has anyone here been denying that some people (all who are not saved) will be condemned at the judgment? I certainly have not encountered it, except from probably one person whose posts have not appeared on this or any recent thread. Condemnation at the judgment is not what is under dispute, so why bring it up as if it argues for one position over another?

There is nothing in any of these many passages that indicate that the threatened judgement is not final.

I agree. There is a final judgment. Has anyone denied this? What has this to do with our discussion and disagreements? If a criminal in our system has run out of appeals, then the last judgment he has received from a judge is the "final" verdict. But this tells us nothing in itself about what the sentence will be. Some people, after the judge rules, end up with death, life in prison, some shorter time in prison, or community service. In each case, the judgment may be "final." Likewise, everyone believes there is a final judgment. What we disagree about is what the sentence is. You make it the same for all. Others do not. We await relevant scriptures for your position.

We are never told of repentance resulting in salvation for those in hell;

If we wish to be honest, we have to say that almost nothing is said in scripture about hell, or people's experience there, so your statement is irrelevant. However, we are told many things about God.

repentance is presented as an urgent matter, something to be done now while there is time, before it is too late and the door is shut. These are Jesus' warnings, issued again and again.

Warnings about what, exactly? True, it is a very urgent matter that people repent and serve God. Again, you are saying nothing unique to your position. The question is, "What is at stake?" The displeasure of God, at the very least. What does that look like, in terms of penalties? Now that's where we need to see something specific in scripture to guarantee that our answers are not merely from tradition or from our imagination.

I understand Mark 16:16 to be Mark's account of the "great commission". We have no commission to preach or promote salvation in hell.

Nor have we a commission to preach anything about hell, so what's your point. The Gospel is about the Kingdom of God, not hell.

The preaching and defense of universalism as a legitimate doctrine is against Jesus' warnings about judgement. It can only attenuate His threats.

This is not self-evident, nor have you demonstrated that this is the case. Every threat that Jesus made had the built-in condition that repentance would change a man's fate. That is also the message of the universalist, as much as anyone else's. You just want to cut off God's mercy at the point of death. Jesus never did this, to our knowledge, and would not be likely to have contradicted so many Old Testament affirmations that "His mercy endures forever."

As for "preaching universalism"—I have never heard anyone preach universalism. Have you? We are discussing biblical doctrine here. This forum is not preaching to unbelievers. The dialogue here is among believers trying to better understand the kind of God we worship and serve.

However, I would not be afraid to tell an unbeliever about universalism, if I knew it to be true. It might make someone actually love a God who is not the schizophrenic monster preached by traditionalists. Why "schizophrenic"? Because what else can be said about someone so much of two minds as to love a man enough to die for him one moment (before death), and then to hate the same man with eternal hatred one moment after death, while the man remains the same man one moment before and one moment after? I am glad the Bible does not ever present a picture of such an inconsistent god!

On another note, do you find yourself talking to more people about repentance than you hear me talking to about repentance? Our doctrines differ, but our practice does not. How is that?

And this is a message "itching ears" are eager to hear.

Why would we insist on preaching a "Gospel" that people would not be eager to hear? Isn't the Gospel good news? Isn't it what the angels preached to the shepherds: "Good tidings of great joy, which shall be for all the people?" Do you think the shepherds were put off from seeking Christ simply because they had been told that the news is good for everybody? How did you become persuaded that the good news is to be mixed with bad news? Is that taught somewhere in the great commission? I see the words "Preach the good news to every creature." Where are the instructions to preach the not-so-good news to every creature? Just wondering.

The lost are not regenerated prior to faith, as Calvinists claim. Their God is self, and a second chance after death (actually an endless chance as advocated here) is all many, likely most, need to hear to continue on their merry way.

This absurd argument has been answered every time it has been brought up. How can it come up again? Every view of hell that is discussed here includes the threat of punishment. You do realize this, don't you? If not, how could you have missed it? IF so, why do you act like you don't know it? There is no one here saying that the unrepentant sinner gets away with his sin, and no one would ever give such a false impression to an unbeliever to who he was preaching. So why do you pretend that one view actually fails to give the sinner cause for alarm? Is no punishment less than the death penalty or eternal torment capable of causing alarm?

Do you think that the threat of a month in jail would not induce most people you know to avoid committing a crime? How about ten years? How about fifty? Do you think the average person would reason, "Oh well, it's only fifty years in jail—guaranteed—if I rob this bank. I'll definitely get caught and do the time, because the place is surrounded by cops, and the judge is even watching—but, hey! I'll have another chance at life when I get out. Might as well rob it, just for the fun of it"? I doubt if you know one person who would think that way (not that they aren't out there, but they would be pretty rare). Why do you think that only your ideas of hell would adequately provide incentives for repentance?

However, the real incentive for repentance is conviction that come from the realization of having wronged God. The more loving the God that has been wronged, the greater the conviction. Do you think it important to conceal the love of God from the sinner until after he has repented? From what Bible are you deriving your message? I thought the preaching of "Christ crucified" was the message Paul preached in Corinth. Jesus on a cross? Is that a threatening message to the sinner, or a message of love?

[steve7150]

Would you mind sharing your perspective?



My perspective from the beginning of this discussion is that the scriptures are full of threats and warnings about a coming judgement with awful consequences for those who do not repent; "he that believeth not will be damned"







Homer,
Thanks for answering a question directed to Backwoodsman who i still hope shares his perspective.

As you know Homer the word "krisis" which the KJV translates as "damned" really means "a separating" "a trial" "contest" "judgment" "condemnation" according to Strong who believed in eternal torment.
As you also know the english word "crisis" comes from the greek word "krisis" and as you may know sometimes a crisis can be a good thing in the big picture.

If i remember correctly i think you once said that postmortem salvation may be possible for some people and if this is true then our disagreement is only over a matter of degree, horrifying as this thought might be to you.

[jriccitelli]

'If we wish to be honest, we have to say that almost nothing is said in scripture about hell, or people's experience there, so your statement is irrelevant. However, we are told many things about God'

I will refrain from my comments to this, and go back to the inquiry I posted earlier;
The Preterist doctrine allows one to swipe away 'all' the judgments of scripture as if they 'all' already happened, leaving a glorious future for 'all'. Am I wrong on this? Please tell me I am wrong!

I am a bit uneducated on Preterism (although I have 'considered' a lot of the 70ad ideas)
I have your book on Preterism and Revelations, so;

Is there something in the book that explains the Preterist view of 'Old Testament Judgments'?
(Not in simply fulfilled, I have been looking at the scripture index also but still not sure of the two fold fulfillment, or the Preterist view of the 'purpose and meanings' of judgments and destruction)
(I am aware 'most' Judgments are historically fulfilled, but I hold that God 'clearly' implies that similar judgments await 'all' who are rebellious vile etc. I see the Old Testament and the Law as a warning to observe and be warned, for God is Love and He is a Consuming Fire).

And another question;
What was the purpose for God warning, punishing, killing and destroying all throughout the Old Testament? (Is this not a warning to 'all' that this will happen to us also if we do not repent?)

And; Does Preterism allow for the two fold double fulfillment of scriptures and prophecies?
(Since many things biblical represent things to come, sometimes twice, and most serve as types and examples, I understand there are two or more schools of thought on this, full and partial, etc?)

[Ian]

The more loving the God that has been wronged, the greater the conviction.

Amen, Steve, amen.

If I may be open here, even if it doesn`t paint me as a model of obedience:

I need to see the tears in God`s eyes before I see His anger. If I only see His anger. it makes me want to thumb my nose at Him and join the rebellion. Yes, I need to fear the power that can throw me into hell. But without those tears I have no strength to resist rebellion. The problem with the tone of your posts, Homer and John, is that I see only God`s anger. I never hear mention of God`s pain, only His wrath. Maybe I`m emotionally less than balanced, but your posts are not particularly edifying to me, to be honest.

[steve]

jriccitelli wrote:

The Preterist doctrine allows one to swipe away 'all' the judgments of scripture as if they 'all' already happened, leaving a glorious future for 'all'. Am I wrong on this? Please tell me I am wrong!

I am pretty sure you are wrong about this. My impression is that most preterists are not universalists, and that they do not see "a glorious future for all." At least the preterist writers I have read seem to accept the traditionalist view of hell without question.

I don't think that preterist considerations enter into this inquiry about hell—at least, for me they don't. You are confusing two different controveries:

1) views about grand-scale eschatology (what is referred to as "the End"?), and

2) views about personal eschatology (eternal destinies of individuals).

The former has to do with events up to the final judgment; the latter is concerned with matters following that judgment. As far as I know, there is almost no overlap in the controversies over these separate categories.

One does not have to be a Preterist in order to recognize that prophecies in the Old Testament about Philistia, Moab, Edom, Babylon, Assyria, Egypt, Israel and Judah have been fulfilled. You only need to read the notes at the bottom of the page of any Study Bible. Preterism has to do with interpreting prophecies that many people apply to the "end times"—and identifying what the "end times" were, or will be. Most of the Old Testament verses you have cited had a past fulfillment agreed upon by all.

I have your book on Preterism and Revelations...Is there something in the book that explains the Preterist view of 'Old Testament Judgments'?

I wrote a book about Revelation, but have not written one about Preterism. You might be thinking of someone else's book.

(I am aware 'most' Judgments are historically fulfilled, but I hold that God 'clearly' implies that similar judgments await 'all' who are rebellious vile etc.

I would have to know more about which passages you are seeing this way. I have not seen any hint of this secondary meaning in the ones you pasted here. There are, of course, other passages (mostly in the New Testament) about a future, final judgment. It is not usually discussed in the same passages with historical judgments, in my opinion.

What was the purpose for God warning, punishing, killing and destroying all throughout the Old Testament? (Is this not a warning to 'all' that this will happen to us also if we do not repent?)

I think that most of the time, the prophets were giving God's message to their own generation, to warn them of the dangers they were courting by their rebellion against God. Without repentance, these things would occur. I suspect "the purpose for God warning, punishing, killing and destroying" was to carry out these threats on the unrepentant. What is it in these passages that makes you see more than this in them?

Does Preterism allow for the two fold double fulfillment of scriptures and prophecies?

Pretrism, per se, does not address this question. The affirmation of Preterism can be summarized as follows: "It was predicted, and it happened." Whether there are exegetical grounds for seeking additional fulfillments beyond the first would not be the concern of preterism as a system so much as of individual interpreters.

[Singalphile]

Steve wrote:
The reason that some of the points for universalism are repeated here is that they have never been answered, and the critics keep restating the fallacious points that these arguments correct.

I'll give it a go. Here are my takes on these verses from your earlier post. I try to look at the Greek/Hebrew, but I must usually rely on a survey of the major English translations. I quote NASB, NKJV, HCSB, or YLT in probably all cases.

I am not reading any other commentary on these verses. These are just my brief responses. I didn't always quote the verses b/c of space/time. The original verse list had no comments so sometimes I have nothing to respond to or say about a verse.

(UR = universal reconciliation/salvation.)

Disclaimer: These notes are as much for me as for anyone. Statements like "Read the whole chapter" are for me. In being brief and casual, I hope it doesn't come across as rude anywhere.

1. The message of the Gospel is that God has acted to reconcile the whole world (not just a tiny remnant) to Himself:

Luke 2:10 - The good news is certainly for (or to) all people: Jesus, sinless, bore our sins' wages so that whoever believes in Him will not. All are blessed by the work of His disciples. These things are true regardless of the fate of the wicked, I think.

John 3:17 - My go-to translations (NASB, NKJV, HCSB) use "may" or "might" (aorist subjunctive?) which indicates a desire or possibility. A few other translations differ. It's my opinion that God wants to save the world, but the context of this passage makes it difficult for me to insert a teaching that everyone must be saved. Those who believe will be saved, and some will not believe, it seems He says.

John 12:47 - This is hopeful for UR, at least by itself. Jesus came to save (from what?) the world. Is He then a failure unless everyone is saved? In the surrounding verses, He makes distinctions between those who reject Him and those who believe in Him. He also speaks of the last day when those who reject Him will be judged. Again, it's difficult to necessarily read UR into this passage. If I go to the poor house to give everyone a house, job, medical care, and $100,000, would you call me a failure if some people refuse the gifts? God didn't want Adam/Eve to disobey Him. God does not want us to sin. We do.

Acts 3:21 - Here is a statement that there will be times (or a time) of restoration of all things about which God spoke through the prophets. It's not exactly clear to me what Peter meant, I admit. Restoration to what and how? I'm not sure. To restore/repair an old car, I'd clean what can be cleaned, scrape off the rust, and/or replace bad parts, etc., so that it wholly looks and runs the way I want it to. A bad personal relationship can also be restored/repaired/re-established (though only if all parties are willing). We could perhaps use either or both of these images. It speaks of all "things", but I'm supposing that that's just the English. There is the mention of those who "shall be utterly destroyed [or "cut off"] from among the people" a couple verses after this one, though. So, all in all, I'm not seeing a whole lot there for UR. It can be read in, well enough, though.

Romans 5:18 - This is the best one for UR so far, I think. However, it's part of a long connected line of thought so one needs to at least read all of chapters 4 and 5, which is not very easy, imo. Hmm. Justification is by faith. Paul is speaking to believers. After reading through chapter five several times, it's not so clear that Paul means that every person will be justified (i.e. have faith). You'll have to judge for yourself. Certainly, not everyone has justifying faith before death. Will everyone eventually be justified by faith after death or the judgement? Not clear. (Also, translations are quite varied.)

Romans 11:15 - This also is in the middle of a rather lengthy treatise. But I do not think that one could read this and the surrounding verses as teaching that every person will be saved/justified/reconciled. He speaks of possibly saving "some" of his countrymen, branches broken off, severity to those who fell or will fall, etc. As "all Israel will be saved", all who are not Israel will be unsaved, I guess. In context, it's not at all clear that he means that everyone will be reconciled by grace/faith after judgement/hell. If so, he's keeping it awfully close to the vest, imo.

Hebrews 2:9 - Most of us agree that Jesus died for everyone so that anyone can be saved by God's grace through faith in Him. Whether or not everyone will be saved (after death/resurrection/judgement) is not clearly taught in this passage, imo. (Aorist subjunctive!)

1 Corinthians 15:54-55 - He seems to be talking to and about believers (brethren/us/we). I don't see much relevance to the issue at hand. One could read into it, but I'm not sure that it's justified.

2 Corinthians 5:19 - This again speaks of God was "reconciling the world to Himself" by Christ. UR could be read in there, I think, but as before, it's not clear that everyone will (must) be reconciled to God. In the following verse, Paul says, "We beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." There is a part for man to play. How it works out is not clear to me from this.

John 1:29 - UR could be read into this, I think. I'm not sure how John (the Baptist) meant it or how John (the writer) took it. Jesus certainly is the only "lamb"/sacrifice that takes away the world's sin. But a person must accept this to be justified. Whether or not everyone can and will (must) do so after the destruction of this world (and so on) is not clearly expressed here, but certainly not ruled out, I think.

1 John 2:2 - Same as previous. If John means that everyone must be saved, then he must mean that everyone must be saved eventually after the judgement, i.e., after the "lake of fire". (This is, I assume, the same John who saw/wrote the Revelation.) I see this as a bit of a stretch.

Isaiah 53:6 - I think it would be a stretch to read UR into this.

Colossians 1:20 - It's clear to me that Jesus is reconciling all things to Himself. It does take two, though, to reconcile. Paul's writing to Christians here. He writes in the next sentence, "... you who once were alienated..., yet now He has reconciled... to present you holy... if indeed you continue in the faith....[emphasis added]" Imo, we're not really getting to the question of whether everyone will (or must) eventually become a Christian (as we understand that) in an after life.

Ephesians 1:9-10 - As a stand-alone verse, this sounds like a pretty good one for UR. Interpretation is a bit tricky - all things in Christ or all things into Christ. Either way, I believe it. But I wouldn't necessarily see universal salvation in there unless I were looking for it. Read the whole chapter!

1 Timothy 2:6 - This does not teach UR, imo, but it's clear to me that God "acted to reconcile the whole world to Himself", as Steve put it. See verse 4. It's difficult to see how one can come to Calvinism through all this, but....

1 Timothy 4:9-10 - This could fit into UR perhaps, except even then, it's difficult to see how unbelievers are saved. I would put "from sin" after "Savior". The Savior must save us from something, after all. We are saved/delivered from sin. It makes sense to me that everyone is in some way saved (or delivered) from the effects of sin just by its overall reduction. The believer is especially saved because he's saved from others' sins and his own sin. That makes more sense to me. I could take in in a UR way if I supposed that those of us who are believers at any given time are better off than those who aren't yet (but certainly will be), but that seems a bit strained/weak.

Titus 2:11 - God brings or makes manifest salvation to all men (or something like that). Doesn't have to be understood as UR, but could be, I suppose.

Summary: The question is not whether or not He wants everyone to be reconciled to Him. It seems obvious, however, that not everyone will reconcile themselves to Him in this life. May we then infer that everyone will do so in the next round, after God turns up the heat, so to speak, with a face-to-face meeting of some sort? So far I see little reason to expect that, even less to affirm it. But maybe in the next group of verses!

2. God is not satisfied to have any lost ones to fail to be recovered:

Matthew 18:11,14 - "Son of Man came to save that which was lost. ... So it is not the will of your Father... that one of these little ones perish." - Who could disagree with the first verse? In the 2nd verse's context, it seems that the "little ones" are little children. Neither verse teaches UR, especially in context.

Luke 15:4 - "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine ... and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?" - This (and surrounding parables) does not necessarily teach UR, of course, but one could insert that idea in there. Otherwise, He's giving examples of sinners who repent. (Assuming lost sheep = sinner.)

1 Timothy 2:4 - "...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." - This, I do not doubt. Doesn't teach UR, but it's a clear statement of God's desire, and He wants us to pray for all men. I'm sure that God also desires that I never sin.

Romans 11:32 - "For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all." - This could support UR. Context doesn't seem to support that, though. That is, he doesn't seem to be talking about what happens after life.

Ezekiel 33:11 - "I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live." - I agree. Read surrounding verses. Very hard to square with UR.

2 Peter 3:9 - "...not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." Statement about God's desire, with which (most) all agree. Context does not support UR. Apparently, some people were wondering why God was "slow about His promise". Peter says that God's time is not our time and that God, by not coming already, was showing patience towards them because He does not want any of them to perish. The implication is that if God had come before them, some of them would have in fact perished, even though God doesn't want that.

Summary: More clear teaching that God does not want anyone to perish. Few here would deny this, I guess. None of these verses clearly teach UR, imo. Actually, the surrounding verses sometimes could be seen as quite contrary to UR. So I don't think we're getting any closer to UR.

3. God is merciful even to His enemies, despite His obligation to justly punish sin:

Exodus 33:5-7 Example of God dealing with Israel. Nothing definitive or even very relevant, imo.

Psalms 103:8 - "The LORD is compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in love." - Great verses about God's character, certainly, but they don't necessitate UR.

Habakuk 3:2 - "Lord, I have heard ... and I fear. ... O Lord, ... In wrath remember mercy."

Jonah 4:2 - Johan speaking of God's compassion/love in not bringing His declared calamity on Nineveh when it repented. Doesn't teach UR.

Matthew 5:44 - "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." - See following verses, too. Doesn't teach UR, but teaches that God does good even to the evil. Just the sunrise and rain is even more than many deserve, apparently.

Luke 6:35-36 - "for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful." - Same as above.

Luke 23:34 - "Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing."

Romans 5:8 - "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

James 2:13 - "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." - Not sure how this could be used for UR.

1 John 4:8, 16 - "God is love. ... Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him." - Yes. The argument is that the other views about the after-life are not loving (according to some), so they are not likely correct. This is a stretch, I think. A man may love his wife, but she may still leave him and face the consequences of that.

Summary: Some of these verses tell us about the mercy, compassion, love of God. They don't preclude eventual punishment/destruction, here (manifestly) or hereafter (arguably). For example, a judge who prescribes a just punishment and then offers to take the punishment on himself is surely merciful, compassionate, and loving.

4. The penalty for sin is not endless, but proportionate and just:

Genesis 18:25 - Moses speaking to God about Sodom/Gom.: "Far be it from You to do such a thing, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous and the wicked are treated alike. Far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?" - Yes.

Deuteronomy 32:4 - "For all His ways are just; A God of faithfulness and without injustice,...." - Yes. Read chapter.

Psalm 19:9 "The judgments of
the Lord are true;"

Psalm 103:8-9 - Verse already mentioned above.

Isaiah 40:2 - "“Speak kindly to Jerusalem; And call out to her, that her warfare has ended, That her iniquity has been removed, That she has received of the Lord’s hand Double for all her sins.” - Not clearly relevant to me.

Psalm 30:5 - "For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime;...." - A psalm of David about himself. Can't read UR into this, but it speaks of God's willingness to show favor (for a lifetime), I think.

Psalm 62:12 - "And lovingkindness is Yours, O Lord, For You recompense a man according to his work."

Psalm 103:6,9 - "The Lord performs righteous deeds And judgments for all who are oppressed. ... He will not always strive with us,
Nor will He keep His anger forever."

Micah 7:18 "Who is a God like You, who pardons iniquity And passes over the rebellious act of the remnant of His possession? He does not retain His anger forever, Because He delights in unchanging love." - We have statements about God's love and mercy, which are not in question, I think.

Romans 2:5-6 - "...the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each person according to his deeds...." - Does not teach UR, but does speak of just/proportionate judgement/wrath/indignation (as opposed to glory/honor/immortality).

1 Peter 1:17 - "If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;...." - God will judge without bias and justly. Peter's writing to Christians, but true for all, no doubt.

Summary: As Steve wrote, it's often not clear that an/the afterlife is in view in the OT. There is poetry and prophecy generally dealing with Israel, God's chosen people. He deals justly, I'm sure, with all. Again, universal eternal life (in "heaven" or otherwise) is not, I think, required in order for all of these statements to be true.

5. Through judgment, God corrects:

Isaiah 26:9 - "For when the earth experiences Your judgments, The inhabitants of the world learn righteousness." - Certainly. Read all this song's lyrics, though.

Leviticus 26:23-24 - "And if by these things you are not turned to Me, but act with hostility against Me, then I will act with hostility against you; and I, even I, will strike you seven times for your sins." - This deals with His people, Israel. Things go very badly for those who don't repent. What happens to those who die in judgment, I don't know. UR does not necessarily come to mind. As revealed here, the evil-doer does have reason to fear God.

Job 5:17-18 - "Behold, how happy is the man whom God reproves, So do not despise the discipline of the Almighty. For He inflicts pain, and gives relief; He wounds, and His hands also heal." - The words of the person/character "Eliphaz the Temanite", apparently. I agree with him.

Jeremiah 9:6-7 - "See, I will refine and test them, for what else can I do because of the sin of my people?" - Read chapter.

Jeremiah 30:24 - "The fierce anger of the Lord will not turn back Until He has performed and until He has accomplished The intent of His heart;" - It's clear that God can correct through punishment/judgement. I'm not sure that that's what is in mind in this particular passage, though.

Habakkuk 1:12 - "You, O LORD, have appointed them to judge; And You, O Rock, have established them to correct." - Read chapter.

Revelation 15:4 - "Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For ALL THE NATIONS WILL COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOU, FOR YOUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS HAVE BEEN REVEALED." - Quoting from several OT passages that I can't look up now, apparently. This does not seem to have relevance to correction/punishment. One could, though, say that "all the nations will come and worship before you" means that everyone will be saved. That seems like a stretch, particularly in Revelation.

Summary: God did/does/can/will correct through punishment, at least His children/people. That is true, I'm sure. I guess that all Christians believe this. It doesn't compel one to UR. Examples don't establish a rule (and they're not all very good examples).

6. After judgment, God restores:

Jeremiah 23:20 Quoted above already, I think.

Lamentations 3:31-33 - "For the Lord will not reject forever, For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men." - Read the chapter for the full picture. All agree that God is compassionate and loving. This does not, to my mind, require that everyone must eventually repent/reconcile with God, which is the issue.

2 Samuel 14:14 "Yet God does not take away life, but plans [a]ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him." - The words of a woman of Tekoa. UR? I don't see that.

Ps.107:10-13 - "Because they had rebelled against the words of God ... Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble; He saved them out of their distresses." - Yeah.

Isaiah 25:6-8 "The Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; ... He will swallow up death for all time, And the Lord God will wipe tears away from all faces, And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth" - Read the chapter. I don't see UR.

Zephaniah 3:8-9 - Read the chapter, if you like.

Summary: Please see previous summary. I saw almost nothing relevant to my inquiry.

7. Every knee shall bow:

Psalm 22:27, 29 "All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
For the kingdom is the Lord’s And He rules over the nations. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep his soul alive." - This doesn't seem contrary to any of the views.

Psalm 65:2-3 - "O You who hear prayer, To You all men come. Iniquities prevail against me; As for our transgressions, You forgive them." - Okay.

Psalm 66:3-4 - "... Because of the greatness of Your power Your enemies will give feigned obedience to You. All the earth bows down to you; they sing praise to you, they sing praise to your name." - Okay.

Psalm 72:11 - "And let all kings bow down before him, All nations serve him."

Matthew 12:18-21 Please read if you like. (Matthew quoting OT about Jesus.) I don't see anything like UR.

Romans 14:10-12 - "For it is written, 'As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to [or confess or swear allegiance in OT, I think] God.'" - Paul is cautioning against judging a brother. He precedes the OT quote with, "For we will all stand before the judgement seat of God. For it is written...." The point is, I think, that everyone will have to give account and be judged by God. From reading the English, there is nothing there that could be taken to mean UR, but I think I've heard an argument that the Greek word (or perhaps quoted OT Hebrew) necessarily means that the person confessing/praising must be truly repentant or something like that. Paul doesn't seem to be teaching anything about the question at hand (fate of the wicked/unbeliever), so I'm hesitant to read into it. I'm reminded of Matthew 25, where both those on the left and right say, "Lord...." I have of course always understood that all will eventually have no choice but to bow/acknowledge/confess/praise/worship God, because they'll be standing before Him, I assume.

John 12:31-32 - "Now judgment is upon this world; ... And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." - I believe that. It doesn't seem to me to mean that all men will be saved.

Isaiah 45:22-25 - "That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance." (Apparently the verse quoted above?) This is good for UR, relatively speaking. The surrounding verses make it less clear. ("The manufacturers of idols will go away together in humiliation. .... And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame. In the Lord all the offspring of Israel will be justified and will glory.") This and the quote from Romans 14:10-12 present the best case so far, I think, that God might save all. It's not expressly taught, but it could be implied from these verses.

Revelation 5:13 - "And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, 'To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.'" - This is another okay one for UR. If literally every created thing/being is singing this song of praise, then surely they will all be saved. Well, maybe. Keeping in mind, though, that this is in Revelation and knowing what else is therein, I'm not comfortable saying that that's more than a possible interpretation, at best. If "every kind of" or "all manner of" is ever the best translation of pas, then surely it's here. That is if we still try to take it literally, in some way. I rather think that this scene shows God's complete honor and dominion over all things. The part about what happens to the wicked/lost comes later, I think. This part is before the "7 seals". Of course, chronology (and everything else) is tricky in Rev, I think, so I'm open to more reasonable suggestions.

8. Christ is victorious; God will not fail:

John 17:4 - "I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do." - See verse 2 and others. This prayer probably hurts the UR case, imo.

Isaiah 42:4 - "He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; ...." - The translations are a bit different. I guess Jesus did establish justice on the earth, in a sense. In another sense, I don't see that justice prevails on the earth since everyone is not just. Anyway, I don't see how this particularly helps or hurts UR.

Isa.53:10-11 - "But the Lord was pleased To crush Him, ... will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities." - Doesn't seem to hurt or help UR, imo.

Psalm 2:8 - "Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession." - Again, no help for UR here, imo. Read the chapter.

1 Corinthians 15:55 - "O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?" - From the context, it seems that he's talking about believers (see verse 23). However, if everyone is resurrected immortal (see verses 53-54), then that would seem to rule out conditional immortality and would mean eternal life (existence) for all. But it seems most correct to understand that Paul is talking to, for, and about believers here. The last enemy to be abolished is death it says (verse 26). Of course, there is the 2nd death (symbolized by the lake of fire...or is it vice versa?). In any case, when death is abolished/destroyed, then no one else will die, presumably. This doesn't necessarily teach UR. One could argue that unless everyone (or >50%) is raised to eternal life, then death won. That is reasonable, I suppose. I give this chapter a high UR score.

Philippians 3:21 - "Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself." - I don't think this helps UR. See verses 18-19. All things are subject to God even now, or aren't they?

Romans 5:20 - "The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more," - Yes.

Summary: I think there are good ones in there. At some point, I would like to try to pull out the ones that I think could reasonably be used for UR. There may be others not listed here.

Final Summary: I think that the context usually weakens the UR case. There's no real clear teaching about it, imo, but that could be argued for all the cases. Also, the surrounding verses are often full of rather clear implications that some people won't be saved. It's hard to argue around that. But there are some good UR verses, imo. There are fewer actual passages that read UR, imo. But unlike Steve, I do not think that truth always has the best argument, so I'm happy to wait and see and not insist on any given view.

Whew... I'm ready to move on to something else!

I know this post is way too long and no one will ever read it, which is fine, but it helped me.

[john6809]

Hey Singalphile,
I'll read it - just not tonight!

[steve]

Hi Singalphile,

Thanks for taking the time to go through those! It's good to finally know someone is wrestling with the evidence.

Of course, you understand, these are not verses that are said to prove universalism. If it could be proved, there would no longer be a controversy about it. These are the verses that reveal the nature of God. This has been the restorationist's argument all along: There is a God. He has revealed Himself (not His specific plans for the wicked) in scripture and in Christ. These verses tell us who God is.

Whatever He may do to sinners will have to be consistent with the kind of God he is. Hell is exactly what He wants it to be and suited exactly for what He designed it to accomplish. No one influenced His decision, when He was creating hell. Therefore, any view of hell the disagrees with God's character and His stated intentions must obviously be out of the question.

Since the scriptural case for eternal torment approximates absolute zero (since it would clearly be the concoction of a different God than that of Jesus Christ), and since the proof for extinction appeals primarily to verses that do not address afterlife issues, we are left to ask what postmortem arrangements have the scriptures left open to us that are most in keeping with what God has told us about Himself.

When we say that, in an eternity of torment, God could still not melt the hearts of some people, we may well be overrating ourselves. After all, God melted our hearts. Were we just the "good" ones, or the "easy" ones? Were we simply the ones whose wills were weaker than God's, while others are stronger than God? It seems self-congratulating to say, "God could, of course, reach a fine person like myself, but there are multitudes who are so much worse than me, that they defy even the genius of God Himself to convert."

That God could (given enough time and freedom of providence) change everyone's mind seems probable to me. He has changed mine many times—and I am harder to convince than most. The question is whether He is going to give Himself enough time, or whether He's just going to say, "Ah, to hell with it! Let's just burn 'em up!"—thus giving up entirely (and unnecessarily!) on millions of souls for whom Christ died. I guess the Husbandman who has patiently waited for thousands of years "for the precious fruit of the earth" just decides that a few more years would be too taxing on His patience.

I fear that we are the ones who are impatient with our enemies and rebellious children, and we impute our temperaments (wonderful, godlike folks that we are!) to God Himself. How could He possibly be different from us—just because He claims to be?

Universalism can't be proved by the scriptures listed. They simply show the character of God to be a certain way. Thus, hell has to be a certain way. Hell is not the one corner of the universe that remains out of God's sovereign control. It is part of His program, and serves His purpose—like everything else He made.