Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

[jriccitelli]

I know what you’re saying Michelle by pet-peeve, I have a few myself. For one it’s people who tail gate me, then wont turn right at a red light. I have wondered why the whole Bible is not called Revelation, because the ‘whole’ Bible is really a revelation. I prefer the title it has in some of my older Bibles – The Apocalypse – since it would keep the word from getting confused with the other revelations in scripture.
I am often hesitant to call the ‘Old Testament’ as such, first of all I think it offends Jewish believers, I prefer Old Covenant, or better; Moses and the Prophets.

Steve you seem to say that I should be absorbing something you said, I have not seen much in your defense of UR that uses scripture, scripture I am open to absorb. To me UR just seems like a Humanistic approach to Eschatology, using a human definition of ‘love’. I would argue that to understand love we would have to understand ‘all’ God is. Believe me, I am overly optimistic at times concerning Gods love for man, and yet I also see, hear and read of the hardness of men and how depraved man can be.

But as one who has hung around the guilty from time to time, I have often heard someone going to court say “this judge is easy” or “that Judge is hard”, usually because they have stood in His court room a time or two. I see these Bible contexts the same way, we are witnesses of the verdicts and judgments handed out by Our Judge, in effect when we read the OT passages it is as if we are sitting in Gods courtroom. Only for now as observers, we should take warning that one day we may be sitting in the defendants chair instead.

[jriccitelli]

I think it is unusual to find an Old Testament quote used by New Testament writers that is ‘not’ in a context surrounded by Judgments on sin. The New testament writers did not seem to have a problem using passages from ‘anywhere’ in the Old Testament, regardless of a prophetic fulfillment or historical content, they seem to think ‘God has not changed’ and it is for the most part all one context.

I am all about ‘correct’ context, but when a NT writer is writing about a principle or common thread in scripture they seem to be able to discern that scripture speaks of faith, fear, love, compassion, patience, friendship, prayer, forgiveness, money, idols, confession, curses, repentance, marriage, truth, commandments, righteousness, holiness, sin, punishment and judgment, and the character of God, generally in the same context - the words of God - they know they can use the Word of God to define these terms and ideas better than anything else to teach and reprove.

The idea that the Biblical Judgments of God upon sin in the Bible cannot be descriptive of post-mortem judgments is a personal opinion. It is not the opinion of John, Paul and Jesus, since they use the same language and verses and they do not seem to make any distinctions.

‘I see no reason to look for a deeper meaning than what was plainly stated’
That’s correct, I don’t either – the judgments are plainly stated – they are judgments against sin and sinners. It’s not that deep really, God punishes, and this is ‘how’ God does it, here and always - unless you repent.

Is there “another verse in scripture that states that God is intending to destroy/punish/judge everyone "in this same manner" after death”

Well I do imagine there are other ways to destroy things, de-atomize maybe (?), but God didn’t use too many other words than extinguish, destroy, annihilate, disappear, perish (I am familiar with the Greek words and the English translation is good enough), the reason I gave was that the language does not change much at all between the two Testaments.

I wrote ‘…The officials of Judah and the officials of Jerusalem, the court officers and the priests and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf— I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. And their dead bodies will be food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. (Jer.34:19-20)
Jeremiah continues to speak of Judgment on sinners and Israel and yet this is the same language used in revelations (and Duet.), why is it the same language?

I thought this language was only for the ‘historical event’ of the Babylonian destruction and judgment of Jerusalem, yet it is used again by John to describe a different event. Or is it a continuation of judgment for the same offenses? Or is it because it is the same God who spoke through John, Ezekiel and Jeremiah etc.;

Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.” (Rev.19:17-18)

Jeremiah repeats this also in chap.19;
‘I will cause them to fall by the sword before their enemies and by the hand of those who seek their life; and I will give over their carcasses as food for the birds of the sky and the beasts of the earth. 8“I will also make this city a desolation and an object of hissing; everyone who passes by it will be astonished and hiss because of all its disasters. 9“I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and the flesh of their daughters, and they will eat one another’s flesh in the siege and in the distress with which their enemies and those who seek their life will distress them’ (Jer.19: )

This is the same kind of language Ezekiel uses also (although Ezekiel may have heard Jeremiahs preaching, Ezekiel had no problem uttering the same judgments);

“As for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field, “Assemble and come, gather from every side to My sacrifice which I am going to sacrifice for you, as a great sacrifice on the mountains of Israel, that you may eat flesh and drink blood. 18“You will eat the flesh of mighty men and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, as though they were rams, lambs, goats and bulls, all of them fatlings of Bashan. 19“So you will eat fat until you are glutted, and drink blood until you are drunk, from My sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you. 20“You will be glutted at My table with horses and charioteers, with mighty men and all the men of war,” declares the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel 39:17-20)

Jeremiah does a much better job of commentary on the proceeding verses above than I could;

21… and all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them. 22“And the house of Israel will know that I am the LORD their God from that day onward. 23“The nations will know that the house of Israel went into exile for their iniquity because they acted treacherously against Me, and I hid My face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and all of them fell by the sword. 24“According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them, and I hid My face from them’ (Eze.39:21-24)

How is a verse like Eze.39:17-20 not understood as a ‘warning’ to Israel, ‘all the other nations’, or ‘anyone’ reading this book?
The author states “all the nations will see My judgment which I have executed and My hand which I have laid on them”, this must be saying that this was done so that everyone would see that this is how God Judges His own, you should take notice and be warned.
The author (God?) says ‘According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I dealt with them’. As an example to others is the motivation and purpose of the Judgment, if we cannot learn from this judgment on Israel then; ‘for what purpose does it have?’

Chapter 22 of Revelation has 'at least' 8 references to Isaiah, Ezekiel, Zechariah and Malachi not counting Genesis, Duet., Psalms and Daniel.
Chapter 19 is the same. Chapter 22 has promises of a New City of God, and 19 is wrapping up the judgments yet both quote from similar chapters in Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.!

Revelations 18 to 22 seems to quote from Isaiah chapters 21 24 35 40 41 47 48 55 60 62 66 65, Jeremiah 25 50 51, Ezekiel 27 38 39 40 43 47 48 Malachi 5 16, Zephaniah 2 14, Zechariah 2 6, and most all these chapters are surrounded by or are themselves chapters of prophetic Judgments. That’s just to get started, there seems to be more. It’s not just Revelation but all the other New Testament books – use illustrations from Historical and prophetic books in the Old Testament. Some concerning life, some concerning faith, some concerning Judgment.

Many more NT uses of OT passages of Judgement to come, many without definite historical fulfillment context, as in Psalms!

[john6809]

jriccitelli wrote,

The idea that the Biblical Judgments of God upon sin in the Bible cannot be descriptive of post-mortem judgments is a personal opinion. It is not the opinion of John, Paul and Jesus, since they use the same language and verses and they do not seem to make any distinctions.

I am not saying that they "cannot" - I'm only asking you to show me where they are used in this way. The trouble with words, is that we only have so many at our disposal. If we use a word to describe something in a certain manner at this time, are we then to avoid using that same word elsewhere, for fear of causing confusion? It seems as though you are making distinctions here. The way I read the judgement passages in the OT is as follows: "If you become excessively evil, I will judge you by taking your earthly life away. All nations surrounding this nation under judgement, take notice. All future people, this is for your warning too. If your life is also characterized by excessive evil, I will judge you in the same manner - I will take away your earthly life."

If one of my children does something wrong, and their judgement from me is that they are grounded for a week, and I warn my other children that they can expect the same, would they not be surprised if, when they became guilty of the same offence, I cut their hands off? This is the jump you are making.

jriccitelli wrote,

‘I see no reason to look for a deeper meaning than what was plainly stated’
That’s correct, I don’t either – the judgments are plainly stated – they are judgments against sin and sinners. It’s not that deep really, God punishes, and this is ‘how’ God does it, here and always - unless you repent.

I agree with most of this statement. How He does it is through physical death. The warning for us is the same - sin and go on sinning, you will be similiarly punished. "Here and always" is not even reasonable since we haven't reached the point in time where this judement is to happen. All we do know for certain, is that God has done in the past, what He promised to do.

[Homer]

john6809,

You wrote:

The way I read the judgement passages in the OT is as follows: "If you become excessively evil, I will judge you by taking your earthly life away. All nations surrounding this nation under judgement, take notice. All future people, this is for your warning too. If your life is also characterized by excessive evil, I will judge you in the same manner - I will take away your earthly life."


[JR wrote:
‘I see no reason to look for a deeper meaning than what was plainly stated’
That’s correct, I don’t either – the judgments are plainly stated – they are judgments against sin and sinners. It’s not that deep really, God punishes, and this is ‘how’ God does it, here and always - unless you repent.}


I agree with most of this statement. How He does it is through physical death. The warning for us is the same - sin and go on sinning, you will be similiarly punished. "Here and always" is not even reasonable since we haven't reached the point in time where this judement is to happen. All we do know for certain, is that God has done in the past, what He promised to do.

Since JR is being challenged to show how the OT warnings and judgements apply to us it also seems to be fair for you to show how God now punishes the wicked through physical death. Everyone, the righteous as well as the wicked, dies a physical death. In what way do you see the wicked being punished differently by "taking your earthly life away"? I'm not understanding what you mean.

[john6809]

Homer wrote,

Since JR is being challenged to show how the OT warnings and judgements apply to us it also seems to be fair for you to show how God now punishes the wicked through physical death. Everyone, the righteous as well as the wicked, dies a physical death. In what way do you see the wicked being punished differently by "taking your earthly life away"? I'm not understanding what you mean.

Using the term, "taking your earthly life away", was an over-simplification used to show that the judgement promised and delivered by God was temporal in nature. If God told other nations and individuals that these things should serve as a warning to them, why should it be understood as a warning of judgements in an eternal sense rather than a continuation of the way He judged in the OT passages (temporally)?

We need not look very far, in our world, to see events that are reminiscent of OT judgements. However, lacking a clear word from God through prophets or apostles, I would not choose to label any of those events as necessarily being judgements from God against the continuing and unbounded evils perpetrated by different nations and individuals. Some of them may very well be, since Jesus warned His listeners that they could look to God's previous judgements as a warning of future judgement. If God had not spoken through prophets like Isaiah, describing what He was going to do, we may never have known that these things that befell the various nations were the direct result of God's judgement. We could only surmise.

Of course, every man, righteous or otherwise, must die. Sometimes those who appear to be innocent (relatively speaking), also face the end of their earthly days as a result of events that occur. That doesn't mean that those people have been "judged" in the same sense as I read in the OT passages. Those who have confessed Jesus as Lord and genuinely belong to Him, go on to that which is better, while the evil face further judgement in an eternal sense. I am simply saying that the passages that JR is using are not explicitly descriptive of what that future judgement of sinners will be. It may turn out to be exactly as he believes, but I would prefer to not take scripture further than it actually goes. I believe as others, here and elsewhere, that precious little is said (unambiguously) about the life and/or judgements we will all be raised up to.

[jriccitelli]

First; I appreciate the UR arguments, and I appreciate the opportunity to debate and familiarize myself with the UR idea, this is becoming a bigger and bigger issue in evangelism so it can only benefit all of us.
I see no reason to separate the judgments of God as being any different between the living and the dead.
And I want to prove so with scripture, but before I continue, I will add that it is just as scriptural that God will do what He promised. As this is just as scriptural as our knowledge that God is loving and compassionate and willing - if they repent, otherwise... that is scriptural.

Many wicked people die without being punished, and many innocent people do die unfair horrific deaths.
So it seems clear that God (because He said He is Just) has reserved a final day of justice and reward in the future, even when it is not defined as post-mortem. If you are buying into some idea that God is handing out judgments on a daily basis, we end up saying everyone’s death (or some people) is a result of Gods judgment on them? I guess we see the danger in that kind of thinking, 911, the Connecticut slaying, etc. for instance.

[jriccitelli]

I use to presume that UR thinking held that there is a Day of judgment coming, and that (I would think) a UR would associate this with ‘That Great and Terrible Day’ foretold in scripture, a Day of Judgment, salvation AND punishment.

“And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also. 18“But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19“Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord; 20and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, 21whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22“Moses said, ‘THE LORD GOD WILL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED to everything He says to you. 23‘And it will be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’ 24“And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days. Acts 3:17-24)

I noticed Peter did not seem to have a problem adding detail to Moses statement of Duet.18:19 in verse 3:23 Peter adds the word – exolethreuomai / cutoff, destroy utterly, annihilate - and clarifies the judgment of Duet.18., I figure Peter heard it explained such from his teacher ‘That Prophet’;
Peter explains that the day of Salvation and Destruction is coming, is Peter talking about the restoration of only the living? Peter does not mention anyone from the dead does he? It is illogical to think that Peter is not just speaking of restoration and judgment of the living but Peter must have in mind the restoration and judgment of ‘all’ the living and the dead, since Peter mentions the things ‘announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets’ and ‘likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and successors onward, also announced these days’ Peter could not be thinking everyone who has died previously will not be included in these same restorations and judgments, what other place could Peter place the dead?
In verse 24 Peter says “And likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his successors onward, also announced these days’ (Acts 3:24) I do not know what else you could ‘exegete’ from this passage without reading into it! Any restoration from the Prophets also included the judgments, and Peter does not digress from the warnings of destruction. Peter and the rest quote Psalms 2 here in chap.4, a statement of warning and Judgment. And since the warning is to honor the Son, I would think this is most likely a warning of unbelief in Jesus The Christ. So the Judgment must be post-incarnation and post-resurrection;

When they had been released, they went to their own companions and reported all that the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24And when they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, “O Lord, it is You who MADE THE HEAVEN AND THE EARTH AND THE SEA, AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM,
25who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,
‘WHY DID THE GENTILES RAGE,
AND THE PEOPLES DEVISE FUTILE THINGS?
26‘THE KINGS OF THE EARTH TOOK THEIR STAND,
AND THE RULERS WERE GATHERED TOGETHER
AGAINST THE LORD AND AGAINST HIS CHRIST.’ (Acts 4:23-26)

Peter (and all of them together) quoted from Psalm 2 (below) in Acts 4:25-26 (above);

Why are the nations in an uproar
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2The kings of the earth take their stand
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,
3“Let us tear their fetters apart
And cast away their cords from us!” (Psalm 2:1-3)

(Here it could be said, 'we' (the kings and rulers of the earth) will free ourselves and we do not need to worry or be frightened by Gods judgments or anger, we will untie our judgement and loose ourselves from Gods punishment, then the Lord laughs at them, see below)

4He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury, saying,
6“But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain.”
7“I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, ‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9‘You shall break them with a rod of iron,
You shall shatter them like earthenware.’”
10Now therefore, O kings, show discernment;
Take warning, O judges of the earth.
11Worship the LORD with reverence
And rejoice with trembling.
12Do homage to the Son, that He not becomes angry, and you perish in the way;
For His wrath may soon be kindled
How blessed are all who take refuge in Him! (Psalm 2:4-12)

I perceive that Christ is my King, and in the heavenly ZIon. And he will return with heavenly Zion, but He has not yet been established on Mount Zion, He will “surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession” this is not yet established in our life, and it was not fulfilled in their life, yet they are dead. Do we think it will ‘not’ be true for them then?.
But, don’t worry IT WILL BE fulfilled, do UR proponents agree with that? The promises of inheritance and possession are just as definite as the judgment and punishments. The reference to shattered earthen ware is common in scripture, the potter can mend the soft clay, but once it is hardened, it is a useless piece and is broken and there is no longer a way to restore it.
--------------------

Speaking of Psalms, I always look to the opening passages of a book to lay down the context and principles, just because I perceive God is a good editor;

How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked,
Nor stand in the path of sinners,
Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
And in His law he meditates day and night.
3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water,
Which yields its fruit in its season
And its leaf does not wither;
And in whatever he does, he prospers.
4 The wicked are not so,
But they are like chaff which the wind drives away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
Nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the wicked will perish. (Psalm 1)

Are we to assume that this passage does not apply to anyone post mortem? Are we to think nothing in the Book of Psalms applies to anything post-mortem? The psalms are replant with promises of joy and salvation yet little could be said of anything post-mortem. Don’t be upset because the Psalmist really doesn’t say either way, it seems to speak in an all in the same perspective.

David says the wicked will not stand in the judgment (vs.5), which goes with my thinking that If God annihilates you once I do not know if he has much else to say to you. We can say that to be fair; God will have another final Day of Judgment but it can't get much better if you have already been Judged;
“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”
Either way a Judgment is coming where it will be really is of less concern, the main point is that there is a Judgment day, and God clarifies what the penalty is, repeatedly; death, regardless of your place at judgment, time or views on eschatology.

[psimmond]

Funny how almost every thread eventually becomes a discussion on UR (Thanks Rob Bell!)

[steve7150]

Funny how almost every thread eventually becomes a discussion on UR (Thanks Rob Bell!)










Hell is a hot topic and lights a fire under people. Actually though i think it appeals to our sense of justice which we clearly have different perceptions of.

[Ian]

Mr Simmond penned:

Funny how almost every thread eventually becomes a discussion on UR (Thanks Rob Bell!)

More on that here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6Y7HgWYdmE

No particular point, just thought I`d link to it.