Visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children

[jriccitelli]

“Funny how almost every thread eventually becomes a discussion on UR”

I was under the impression that Homer brought UR up (as a contrast) but I just noticed the following when I was looking back at the beginning of this thread;

“National judgments involve temporal (not eternal) consequences brought upon a whole society…” (Steve Nov.24)

Why did Steve feel the need to say 'temporal not eternal consequences'?
Exodus 34:7 are warnings concerning the Law, nothing in the text says that they were ‘limited’ to earthly consequences, after all are not the blessings considered as everlasting?
Eschatology was veiled in the Old Testament but now the veil has been torn away, we can now say with confidence that Gods promises of goodness are for the righteous, but what about the promises of wrath, justice and punishment regarding the unrighteous? Do they ‘now’ get off ‘without’ justice or punishment?
We can rejoice and be glad with the Saints of the Old Testament knowing they will see the promises fulfilled, right?
What has caused all the OT words of God concerning Judgment to be of no application or purpose to anyone, yet every other moral teaching, promise and blessing from the Old Testament can be readily and lovingly accepted? Or is it just preterist UR proponents that hold such a view??

I ‘thought’ Exodus 34 was echoing Exodus 20, the first punishment described by the Law.
God expresses the fact that He could or would punish certain sins for consecutive generations, and they suffered, sometimes 'returning' to the land, sometimes better and repentant - but the penalties did not change - and indeed Israel and Jerusalem have received what the Law promised, 'more' than once. This statement cannot be said to apply to only the 2nd or 3rd commandment, it seems to apply to the Law in general, or specifically ‘those that hate God’.

The Law has earthly consequences for sure, but where is the stipulation that says all these judgments are void post-mortem?
Where does it state they are all temporal? Where does it say “all My Judgments are void as soon as you die”?
How many within UR have adopted a preterist notion that Old Testament language has nothing to tell us about Gods wrath, punishment, or eschatology in any sense?
When did taking the Old Testament as a warning of Gods punishment on sinners come to an end, in 70ad, or was it the fall of Rome!??

Is an Israelite who keeps the Law free from all Gods punishments because Jerusalem was destroyed?
Is there no more curse for breaking the Law, if you are Jewish?
What about if you are not Jewish, is there ‘any’ penalty post-mortem for being a sinner that we can glean from scripture?
How do we know, where do we look, has God said anything regarding punishment?
In the New Testament? (But the NT judgments are no different than the OT)
Is there now ‘another’ different kind of punishment for sin that has nothing to do with the Old Testament Justice system or judgments?
Where is this other law written, is it written at all? Where, is it in the New Testament? That can’t be it, because the New Testament sounds a ‘whole lot’ like the Old Testament!!

Before Christ the average Hebrew would have understood all the judgments, destruction and especially ‘death’ as permanent upon the unrepentant, there is nothing in the OT text that explains the judgments of wrath as ‘temporal’. And nothing to the idea they were only applicable to one event.
Looking back from the perspective of new testament revelation we can now see the promises having a future effect, or effects ‘beyond’ the mere earthly, but nothing says these OT judgments were ‘only temporal’ judgments and punishments, as if death makes every judgment void.
The only indication that we have that they are anything other than permanent consequences (permanent is how most of Israel would have seen the judgments) is the revelation of Jesus that ‘saves us’ from the permanence of it all ‘if’ we repent and believe.

Jesus doesn’t wipe away ‘any’ consequences, in fact Jesus reaffirms them, approves them and warns of more;

‘Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins’ (John 8:24)
'He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day' (John 12:48)

What last day? Is this a ‘new’ concept Jesus is telling us about?
Why haven’t we heard of this before?
Or have we.

[Paidion]

I noticed Peter did not seem to have a problem adding detail to Moses statement of Duet.18:19 in verse 3:23 Peter adds the word – exolethreuomai / cutoff, destroy utterly, annihilate - and clarifies the judgment of Duet.18., I figure Peter heard it explained such from his teacher ‘That Prophet’;

On what basis do you say that Peter added "detail to Moses statement"? Is it simply because Peter's quote differs from what you read in your translation of the Masoretic text of Deut. 18? You must have noticed that ALL New Testament quotes of the old differ from the Masoretic text. That is because the New Testament writers read the Hebrew scriptures from the Septuagint translation.This was doubtless the case with Peter where he read that God is recorded as saying, "I will take vengeance on him." The "vengeance" taken on the Hebrews who wouldn't obey was normally to cut them off from the people, and Peter was simply interpreting it according to the usual practice of the Hebrews of excommunicating such people. The prime meaning of εξολοθρευω is "extirpate" (not "annihilate"). The consequence of not listening to "that prophet" was that of God extirpating them from among the people. Paul seems to have understood this as having happened by the time he wrote his letter to the Romans:

But if some of the branches were broken off [from Israel the "olive tree"], and you [gentiles], although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off [extirpated from among the people].And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. (Romans 11:17-24)

The "olive tree", true Israel, continued to exist even with the inception of the new covenant. It's just that those who refused to hear "that prophet" were cut off, extirpated from among the people of God. They were no longer Israelites [in the true sense of the word]. But those who did listen to "that prophet" and became his disciples were the remnant, the true Israelites who remained in the "olive tree". Then, even gentiles (goyim) who had never been part of Israel, were grafted in to the "olive tree." Thus those who listen to "that prophet" are "the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:16).

Barnes Commentary on the expression "destroyed from among the people":

Shall be destroyed. This quotation, is made according to the sense, and not literally. In the Hebrew the expression is, (#De 18:19,) "l will require it of him," i.e. I will hold him answerable, or responsible for it; I will punish him. This expression the LXX. have rendered by "I will take vengeance on him." The idea of the passage is, therefore, that God would punish the man that would not hear the prophet, without specifying the particular way in which it should be done. The usual mode of punishing such offences was by cutting the offender off from among the people, #Ex 30:33 12:15,19; 31:14; #Nu 15:31 19:13 Le 7:20,21,25,27, etc. The sense is, that he should be punished in the usual manner; i.e. by excision, or by being destroyed from among the people. The word translated shall be destroyed means, properly, to exterminate; wholly to devote to ruin, as of a wicked people, a wicked man whose life is taken, etc. To be destroyed from among the people means, however, to be excommunicated, or to be deprived of the privileges of a people. Among the Jews this was probably the most severe punishment, that could be inflicted. It involved the idea of being cut off from the privileges of sacrifice and worship in the temple and in the synagogue, etc., and of being regarded as a heathen and an outcast. The idea which Peter expressed here, was that the Jews had exposed themselves to the severest punishment in rejecting and crucifying the Lord Jesus, and that they should, therefore, repent of this great sin, and seek for mercy. The same remark is applicable still to men. The Scriptures abundantly declare the truth, that if sinners will not hear the Lord Jesus, they shall be destroyed. And it becomes each individual to inquire with honesty whether he listens to his instructions, and obeys his law, or whether he is rejecting him and following the devices and desires of his own heart.

[jriccitelli]

Peter has put things in his own words more than once, don’t make a big deal out of that, its not like Peter could cut and paste. Whether Peter quoted the Septuagint or paraphrased it in his own words, I reckon Peter knew what he was saying (I think Peter added, because he understood ‘well enough’ to add or authorize what Moses had said). Either way the ‘point’ is that Peter quoted the Law concerning a very harsh Judgment, and harsh is an understatement.

"The "vengeance" taken on the Hebrews who wouldn't obey was normally to cut them off from the people, and Peter was simply interpreting it according to the usual practice of the Hebrews of excommunicating such people’ (Paidion)

You can't really put these two words in the same sentence; Simply excommunicating, what are you trying to say?!

I don’t know if your theology allows for you to contemplate ‘being cutoff’ from the Lords people but generally speaking this means you have been cut-off from Gods people. If you are not His, you are not His. How many ways does God have to say it??;
“I will blot you out of my book... I will say I don’t know you... you have no part with me... better to have a millstone tied around us and thrown in the sea... the doors were shut”, etc. etc. To be cut off from Gods people meant death. And in New Testament teaching this means you are not in the Lambs book of Life.
So I whole heartily agree with the Barnes quote, it says just what I am saying, thanks;

‘The idea which Peter expressed here, was that the Jews had exposed themselves to the severest punishment in rejecting and crucifying the Lord Jesus, and that they should therefore repent of this great sin, and seek for mercy. The same remark is applicable still to men. The Scriptures abundantly declare the truth, that if sinners will not hear the Lord Jesus, they shall be destroyed’

[Homer]

Surely we are not to think the OT prophecies about judgement refer only to contemporaneous temporal punishment. We see the footstool reference in the NT no doubt comes from the Psalm about our Messiah and the wrath upon His enemies:


Psalm 110, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

A Psalm of David.

110. The Lord says to my Lord:
“Sit at My right hand
Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”
2. The Lord will stretch forth Your strong scepter from Zion, saying,
“Rule in the midst of Your enemies.”
3. Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power;
In holy array, from the womb of the dawn,
Your youth are to You as the dew.
4. The Lord has sworn and will not change His mind,
“You are a priest forever
According to the order of Melchizedek.”
5. The Lord is at Your right hand;
He will shatter kings in the day of His wrath.
6. He will judge among the nations,
He will fill them with corpses,
He will shatter the chief men over a broad country.
7. He will drink from the brook by the wayside;
Therefore He will lift up His head.

I'm thinking some folks are badly misunderstanding this footstool thing. I'm not thinking it means reconciliation.

[steve7150]

I'm thinking some folks are badly misunderstanding this footstool thing. I'm not thinking it means reconciliation.






If this were the only verse in play i would agree but after the "under his feet" reference in 1st Cor 15 the finale is that "God is all in all" so these destruction warnings which are very real are part of a process of tearing down for the purpose of rebuilding a new man IMO.

[Homer]

Steve7150,

Why do you think God being "all in all" equates to universalism? Seems to me that it is simply another affirmation that all that exists is to be subjected to God. Whether in hell or annihilated they have been subjugated, those in heaven willingly, the others unwillingly.

[jriccitelli]

I do not know how God being ‘all in all’ would exempt the wicked from annihilation, I think Paul is echoing the statement similar to Romans 11:32, 36 (not to mention Eph 1:23, Col 1:17, Rom 4:16);

For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. (11:32)
For from him and through him and to him are all things' (Rom 11:36)

I think this theme has been the same from the beginning; God rules and reigns and is in control of ‘all’ things from beginning to end, it is not some clue to cause us to think ‘all’ punishment will result in the purpose of rebuilding a new man. I do not see such an idea as that in scripture, what I see is God saying over and over; I will destroy and blot out completely the wicked, rebellious, obstinate, Godless, false, deceitful, unbelieving, stubborn, warped, crooked, depraved, enemies, etc, etc.
As pertaining to 11:32, what do the disobedient do to obtain mercy? They repent and turn from their stubbornness then God will have mercy. This has always been the requirement. If – Then.
As for 11:26, this theme goes back a long ways, note after 'all' Job has heard and after hearing God describe Himself as a Tyrannosaurus Rex;

‘Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted”

David continues this theme;

For I know that the LORD is great
And that our Lord is above all gods.
6 Whatever the LORD pleases, He does,
In heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.
7 He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
Who makes lightnings for the rain,
Who brings forth the wind from His treasuries.
8 He smote the firstborn of Egypt,
Both of man and beast.
9He sent signs and wonders into your midst, O Egypt,
Upon Pharaoh and all his servants.
10He smote many nations
And slew mighty kings,
11Sihon, king of the Amorites,
And Og, king of Bashan,
And all the kingdoms of Canaan;
12And He gave their land as a heritage,
A heritage to Israel His people.
13Your name, O LORD, is everlasting,
Your remembrance, O LORD, throughout all generations.
14For the LORD will judge His people
And will have compassion on His servants…
16They have mouths, but they do not speak;
They have eyes, but they do not see;
17They have ears, but they do not hear,
Nor is there any breath at all in their mouths.
18Those who make them will be like them,
Yes, everyone who trusts in them. (Psalm 135)

Note David recounts the slaying of many nations and kings as examples of Gods judgments, David recounts the slaying of the first born of Egypt, then David reminds us God will have compassion on his ‘servants’, but those who don’t trust in Him (vs.15-18) will be like the gods they worship, not seeing not hearing, nor is there breath in their mouths.

Isaiah continues the theme;

“Prepare for his sons a place of slaughter
Because of the iniquity of their fathers.
They must not arise and take possession of the earth
And fill the face of the world with cities.” 22“I will rise up against them,” declares the LORD of hosts, “and will cut off from Babylon name and survivors, offspring and posterity,” declares the LORD. 23“I will also make it a possession for the hedgehog and swamps of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” declares the LORD of hosts. 24 The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, “Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand… (Isaiah 14:21-24)

God promises total destruction and “Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand”

25 to break Assyria in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them and his burden removed from their shoulder. 26“This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations. 27“For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?”
28 In the year that King Ahaz died this oracle came:
29 “Do not rejoice, O Philistia, all of you,
Because the rod that struck you is broken;
For from the serpent’s root a viper will come out,
And its fruit will be a flying serpent.
30“Those who are most helpless will eat,
And the needy will lie down in security;
I will destroy your root with famine,
And it will kill off your survivors.
31“Wail, O gate; cry, O city;
Melt away, O Philistia, all of you;
For smoke comes from the north,
And there is no straggler in his ranks.” (Isaiah 14:21-32)

“This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations”, I don’t see how anyone could not see that God Judges ‘all’ sinners the same way – with utter destruction.
I think I would reflect on ‘all’ Jude had to say;

Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8 Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.

Again the writer reminds’ us that in the same way, for the same sins, with the same language, the Godless rebellious sinner has nothing to look forward to but 'all’ that the Bible has warned of – including black darkness which has been reserved forever.
I am not sure about the writer or inspiration of Enoch’s book, but never the less Jude felt it was worth mentioning (it is interesting since we are in Jude, take it or leave it)

14 It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15 to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” 16 These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage’ (Jude) Selah

Steve 7150, please dont take my rant as personal, I really respect your heart and christian manner, you come across as very likable and this is just biblical debate (your used to this forum). i may agree with you more than you think, remember i said if UR allowed for some to not repent, and left it to be that we cant assume 'all' will repent i would be happy (except for turning hell into...)

[steve7150]

Steve7150,

Why do you think God being "all in all" equates to universalism? Seems to me that it is simply another affirmation that all that exists is to subjected to God. Whether in hell or annihilated they have been subjugated, those in heaven willingly, the others unwillingly.

User avatar
Homer






We are all subjected to God right now as He created us He can destroy us at any time but i doubt that God is "all in all" right now as Satan is now the god of this world.
So the placing by Paul of this description "all in all" is after Christ's enemies have been under his feet which is a symbolic description of his Lordship over everything and then after Christ is Lord over everything , and as a result of this God will be "all in all."
Paul uses the word "in", so in other words God (Holy Spirit) will be "in" a person which is a positive outcome. For the Holy Spirit to be "in" someone that would imply they have ultimately accepted Christ as Lord and became holy. That's not an involuntary end result. You can not receive the Holy Spirit involuntarily.

[steve7150]

Steve 7150, please dont take my rant as personal, I really respect your heart and christian manner, you come across as very likable and this is just biblical debate (your used to this forum). i may agree with you more than you think, remember i said if UR allowed for some to not repent, and left it to be that we cant assume 'all' will repent i would be happy (except for turning hell into...)

User avatar
jriccitelli





JR,
I don't take anything here personally and i have learned interesting things to ponder from you and Homer and others even though i disagree on certain things. I'm not a UR but i think postmortem repentance is possible and likely so i am of a mind that UR is simply a possibility.
If i understand your view correctly i think you believe God's judgment on sinners in this life are final so if we do disagree, so what? Only the big guy's opinion matters in the end.

[Paidion]

"The "vengeance" taken on the Hebrews who wouldn't obey was normally to cut them off from the people, and Peter was simply interpreting it according to the usual practice of the Hebrews of excommunicating such people’ (Paidion)

You can't really put these two words in the same sentence;

Why not?

Simply excommunicating, what are you trying to say?!

What are you trying to say? I said "simply interpreting."

So I whole heartily agree with the Barnes quote, it says just what I am saying, thanks;

I don't think you read Barnes very carefully or you would not make that affirmation.

The word translated shall be destroyed means, properly, to exterminate; wholly to devote to ruin, as of a wicked people, a wicked man whose life is taken, etc. To be destroyed from among the people means, however, to be excommunicated, or to be deprived of the privileges of a people. Among the Jews this was probably the most severe punishment, that could be inflicted. It involved the idea of being cut off from the privileges of sacrifice and worship in the temple and in the synagogue, etc., and of being regarded as a heathen and an outcast.

To be cut off from Gods people meant death.

So how can you say that you agree with Barnes? Do you consider excommunication tantamount to death?