Knowing who speaks the truth of God - NT?

[backwoodsman]

Barnsweb,

I've been watching this thread for your responses to Steve's post in the other thread, but so far you haven't responded to most of his points. Would it be safe to assume that you concede those to which you haven't responded? It seems you need to either respond to them, or concede your whole argument, because if any of his points are correct, then you are clearly mistaken.

For your convenience, the post is here:
http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59455#p59455

[Barnsweb]

1. Saying the commandments are death to us and the Spirit is life. God said the Spirit would be sent to write His directions to us upon our hearts that we be drawn from the heart to keep them - not count them as death



I believe when Paul references the Law of Moses in a negative way he is referring to the ritual laws as opposed to the moral type of law which is eternal. Certainly you agree that the ritual/ceremonial laws have been fulfilled?

I think this is being unjustifiably easy of what Paul actually taught. Romans 7 says the Jews were released from the Law because their 'husband' died on the cross. Paul was not just talking ceremonial law, but the Torah in total - the commandments and ceremonies of the Temple. One key thing that opened my eyes about Paul was who Paul said gave the law to Moses VS what Moses and Jesus said. Multiplying error is no solution. So Hebrews also says the same thing Paul did - and was evidently penned by someone who took to word of Paul over the word of Moses and Jesus Christ... so don't think anything can be absolutely relied upon in that account either.

We need to be disciples of Jesus Christ in more than word only - we must abide in His word if we hope to not be ensnared and damned - must be part of the reason Jesus said 'If you abide in My word, ye are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.' (from being ensnared for one thing - all liars have their place reserved in the fire Jesus spoke of)

[Barnsweb]

Just a couple of things, but there may be more... The Bereans only had one sermon to check to see if Paul taught according to the Scripture - we have a number of books to check and see if Paul did. As Balaam was a true prophet who later taught falsehood, we need to ensure Paul didn't likewise teach it was ok to eat meat sacrificed to idols. (Christ's letter to Ephesus in Revelation)


Paul discouraged the eating of meat sacrificed to idols in any situation in which it might lead the eater or any other person into idolatry (1 Cor.8-10). The Torah nowhere forbade eating meat sacrificed to idols, per se—just idolatry itself. The rabbis went beyond the Torah in forbidding all eating of such meat. Paul was closer to Torah on this than were the rabbis.

In granting liberty in this matter, Paul was only echoing Jesus, who said that what a man eats will not defile him (Matt.15:11).

Jesus was speaking about not following man made rituals of hand washing - not a statement of fact about meat sacrificed to idols! Big difference, and it can be known for sure by other teachings He gave on the topic - notably the one mentioned in Revelation that the 'Balaam' under discussion taught eating meat sacrificed to idols to be tolerated. God had said that the inhabitants of the land that were being dispossessed were worshipping demons - not 'nothings' that Paul implied in his teaching on the topic. Jesus in Revelation says it is an absolute prohibition - not a matter of conscience - no waffle room granted. Going back to the account of Moses, to prevent the inadvertent eating of meat sacrificed to idols (demons), God commanded ALL the pagan alters to be destroyed - this would prevent this from happening (accidentally eating meat sacrificed to an idol). There is no liberty in the matter according to Jesus Christ:

Rev. 2:14-16; "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine oft he Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth." Jesus supplied the details of Balaams' error not in the Torah record - but wouldn't you agree Jesus is telling the truth in Revelation? It was forbidden, yet Paul said it was the 'weak' who believed God, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Why take the word of Paul over those of Jesus Christ?

[jeremiah]

Hello Barnsweb,

One key thing that opened my eyes about Paul was who Paul said gave the law to Moses VS what Moses and Jesus said.

And who other than God (which Paul states to be so in Romans 3:2) are you thinking about here?

Which books of the Christian Scriptures do you accept as canonical?

What was the website that started you on this perspective of the apostle Paul and his teaching?

[jeremiah]

Hello again,

Rev. 2:14-16; "But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine oft he Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth." Jesus supplied the details of Balaams' error not in the Torah record - but wouldn't you agree Jesus is telling the truth in Revelation? It was forbidden, yet Paul said it was the 'weak' who believed God, Moses, and Jesus Christ. Why take the word of Paul over those of Jesus Christ?

Where exactly did Paul teach people to commit sexual immorality?

[Barnsweb]

Would you concede that Jesus prohibited eating meat offered to idols and Paul said it's OK and a matter of conscience? If you won't agree with that point, there is no sense to discuss another.

[Barnsweb]

Hello Barnsweb,

One key thing that opened my eyes about Paul was who Paul said gave the law to Moses VS what Moses and Jesus said.

And who other than God (which Paul states to be so in Romans 3:2) are you thinking about here?

Which books of the Christian Scriptures do you accept as canonical?

What was the website that started you on this perspective of the apostle Paul and his teaching?

My web site was started years ago when studying the teachings of Jesus, not the matters about Paul:
onediscipletoanother.org

Regarding the NT, I hear who Jesus said for me to hear. So far as I can tell that is not to total of what the NT includes. God gave directions on who to hear and who not to hear. Paul doesn't meet those conditions, so I've stopped considering him on any matter of faith/truth/doctrine.

[steve]

Would you concede that Jesus prohibited eating meat offered to idols and Paul said it's OK and a matter of conscience? If you won't agree with that point, there is no sense to discuss another.

I do not find Jesus actually forbidding the eating of anything at all. He said that a man is not defiled by anything he eats (Mark 7:15-19), and He specifically told Peter to kill and eat unclean foods (Acts 10:11-15).

It is true that Jesus said the false teachers place a stumbling block before others by persuading them to eat meat sacrificed to idols (Rev.2:14). However, Paul expressed the very same concern and warned Christians not to stumble others in this very same thing (1 Cor.8:9-13). It sounds like he and Jesus express the exact same sentiment!

Your case against Paul seems to have struck out. Doesn't that put some of the fear of God into you, Friend?

[Barnsweb]

Steve, because you say what you think makes you no more correct that when I say what I think. The issue is about being careful to listen to God and do what He said. We both know that Paul admittedly spoke out of both sides of his mouth. One example is his statements on being as a Jew to those who are Jews and as a Gentile, without the Law, to them, so that by some chance he might win both to Christ. In principle this might seem fairly harmless, except that in this place too he also says he considers himself to not be under the law. He says so! I'm just reading his words as you surely have as well. Paul again spoke harshly of the Torah and those Christians who continued to hold to the things not yet fulfilled and honoring those which had been fulfilled. God forbid eating meat sacrificed to idols. The Jerusalem Church issued a statement of fact to Paul and the Gentile converts to the issue directly and specifically that it was prohibited by the Gentile converts as well. Yet Mr. Balaam Wolfe even turned that over in His teachings.

Paul spoke out of both sides of his mouth all the time, and it would not be unjustified to consider Paul the author of putting up stumbling blocks to the truth of Jesus Christ as taught by Jesus Christ and His chosen disciples. I don't believe my trust in your desire to please God and position as one who is a teacher of these things needs to be the issue, nor your declaring me wrong in what I say negative about Paul to make it true either. The truth comes down to who agrees with what Jesus said the truth is - the word that HE spoke. IF Jesus said something is prohibited and Paul said it is permissible and those who believed Jesus to be the 'weaker' brother - if you believe that lie, you can believe anything.

[Barnsweb]

I fear God, not a man who pretends a curse to those who disagree with anything he said, especially when this same man found the ones who had learned at the feet of Jesus for three years had nothing of value to tell him. In fact, his 'passing' comments about meeting them in Acts tells boatloads about how disrespectful and haughty he was.