Debating an Atheist

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paulespino
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by paulespino » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:08 am

Page 6
Truman wrote:
Please share specifically how God communicates with you. Voices in the head? "Signs" that you interpret? How does God guide you, specifically? I think usually people explain this similar to intuition.. a feeling... but apparently Steve Gregg gets something more concrete???


Steve wrote:
Considerably more concrete, yes. However, you have shown yourself either unable to hear or unwilling to listen, so there is no reason for me to communicate with you any further. You clearly love being ignorant. Why should I try to rain on your parade. I wish you a happy life. It may be all you will have.
Yes, I agree with Steve. I also think that we have given you more than enough attention in this forum than what you really deserve. For some reason people here got carried away.

I suggest for others to also STOP communicating with you for the same reason Steve already mentioned.

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TrumanSmith
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by TrumanSmith » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:06 am

paulespino wrote: Yes, I agree with Steve. I also think that we have given you more than enough attention in this forum than what you really deserve. For some reason people here got carried away. I suggest for others to also STOP communicating with you for the same reason Steve already mentioned.
Yes- put your fingers in your ears and stop, reminds me of Acts 7:
"57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him."

I think a friendly (but also frank) conversation is better than the "fight or flight" response.
..........
Truman Smith, author of "Modern Science and Philosophy Destroys Christian Theology"

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TrumanSmith
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by TrumanSmith » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:15 am

mattrose wrote:
TrumanSmith wrote: I believe in the continued existence of believers between their earthly death and judgment day. This is a secondary Christian belief (intermediate state). But I don't claim to know much about this since the Bible doesn't often address it.
How can you continue to exist if your body is dead and in the ground? Are you admitting the necessity of a soul? Is your reply yes, no, or "I don't know?"

The convenient thing about saying "I don't know" means you never have to defend anything. Just put down your opponent while standing for nothing. That's why I have some admiration for RTB, because they do at least see the responsible need to have a creation model, alternative, rather than just trying to shoot down evolution without offering an alternative. Steve Gregg also has no alternatives to evolution, and is largely in the "I don't know" category. He tries to justify it by saying "it doesn't matter." But it really does matter for people who think about it. It just doesn't matter for him because he doesn't go there mentally. Maybe it is because he's afraid there really is no reasonable position for him to have as a Christian, so best to avoid it all together.

Millard Erickson's "Christian Theology" textbook goes into a lot of discussion over ideas of the soul. This is something theologians, those trying to make sense thinking about God, talk about. Erickson spills a lot of ink on this subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Theolog ... 0801021820
..........
Truman Smith, author of "Modern Science and Philosophy Destroys Christian Theology"

CThomas
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by CThomas » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:15 am

paulespino wrote:I suggest for others to also STOP communicating with you for the same reason Steve already mentioned.
Hi, Paul. While I respect your view, I would personally offer a different opinion on this, and would encourage anyone interested in banging their heads against this wall to continue to do so. This is for several reasons.

First, Truman is a megalomaniac, and will interpret your message as an emotional reaction to try to shut yourself off from the force of his devastating arguments. (And, sure enough, he has done so right on cue.)

Second, it's always fun to watch a train wreck. I have to admit that it's fun to read Truman's messages, and it will be disappointing when the conversation does taper off. Plus, I would justify it as not merely an entertainment but also as an educational exercise insofar as it is a view into a particular psyche that may not, sadly, be entirely unique to Truman.

And third, if others have the patience, there's always the outside hope that some argument or other could help Truman at least present better arguments for atheism, which would, in turn, allow Christians better opportunities to hone their own responses. My own view is that it is extremely unlikely, which is one of the reasons why I stopped engaging with him on the merits, but hey, you never know. Hope springs eternal.

CThomas

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mattrose
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by mattrose » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:02 am

TrumanSmith wrote: How can you continue to exist if your body is dead and in the ground?
There are a number of possibilities.

1. Humans may be made of 2 (dichtomist) or 3 (trichotomist) parts, the body being just 1 of them. In such a case, the 'soul' (defined as the spiritual/immaterial part... continues to exist after it leaves the body. Since your argument against the existence of the soul is nonsense, this is a possibility.

2. Humans may have 2 different aspects (a hardware aspects and a software aspect). If the hardware dies, it may be that God uploads one's software onto his hardware until such a time that God resurrects one's hardware. This view fits better with your views against dichotomy/trichotomy and is still well-accepted by leading christian scholars.
Are you admitting the necessity of a soul? Is your reply yes, no, or "I don't know?" The convenient thing about saying "I don't know" means you never have to defend anything. Just put down your opponent while standing for nothing.


I am not admitting the necessity of the 'soul.' #2 above does not require a dichotomist (or trichotomist view). I would have no problem, though, admitting the necessity of the 'soul' if I felt the Bible clearly taught it, since your argument against the possibility of the soul is nonsense.

I am not saying I don't know to avoid your argument (why would I avoid nonsense other than to save myself from wasting time). I am saying I don't know because I don't know. I lean toward something closer to NT Wright's view (#2 above). But it is such an unimportant issue in Christianity that I literally don't care. I don't much care about the intermediate state. I care about resurrection.
That's why I have some admiration for RTB, because they do at least see the responsible need to have a creation model, alternative, rather than just trying to shoot down evolution without offering an alternative. Steve Gregg also has no alternatives to evolution, and is largely in the "I don't know" category. He tries to justify it by saying "it doesn't matter." But it really does matter for people who think about it. It just doesn't matter for him because he doesn't go there mentally. Maybe it is because he's afraid there really is no reasonable position for him to have as a Christian, so best to avoid it all together.
Without offering an alternative? What are you talking about? Special creation by God IS an alternative view. The mistake you keep making is thinking that a non-dogmatic person must be uninformed. This is probably b/c our culture has trained you to desire absolute certainty (an impossibility on such things as this) to the point that non-absolute-sounding-people drive you insane. Special creation (of mature humans) is an option. Theistic evolution is an option. Naturalistic evolution is an option. They are all options to consider. For the Christian, the 1st two are worth consideration as opposing options.
Millard Erickson's "Christian Theology" textbook goes into a lot of discussion over ideas of the soul. This is something theologians, those trying to make sense thinking about God, talk about. Erickson spills a lot of ink on this subject:
http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Theolog ... 0801021820
Yes, I have the book. And that's just my point. It is something 'theologians' get into and talk about. It is an in-house debate within Christianity. It is not essential to Christianity. Resurrection is essential. Resurrection is the core of Christianity, not the existence of the 'soul' in the intermediate state.

In church, I have taught on the 'soul' many times... as a side issue. I've presented the monist, dichotomist, and trichotomist options. I've given people the various Scriptures that might sound like each option. I've taught them about the Hebrew view of humankind (various aspects) verses the Greek view of humankind (various parts). I've given them the material with which to think for themselves. My point being, it is not a subject I've avoided.

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TrumanSmith
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by TrumanSmith » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:40 am

FYI, I talk about "the problem of evil" in my booklet. Francis Collins is one of the brightest evangelical Christians ever. FYI:

“The problem of evil has no complex answer. In fact it has no satisfactory answer whatsoever. If it did, the smart philosophers and theologians of yesteryear would have resolved it already” (p. 128).
...An interesting quote from Francis Collins.
From: YEC journal
"Theistic evolutionary doublespeak"
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j26_ ... _20-23.pdf
..........
Truman Smith, author of "Modern Science and Philosophy Destroys Christian Theology"

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mattrose
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by mattrose » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:34 pm

TrumanSmith wrote:FYI, I talk about "the problem of evil" in my booklet. Francis Collins is one of the brightest evangelical Christians ever. FYI:

“The problem of evil has no complex answer. In fact it has no satisfactory answer whatsoever. If it did, the smart philosophers and theologians of yesteryear would have resolved it already” (p. 128).
...An interesting quote from Francis Collins.
From: YEC journal
"Theistic evolutionary doublespeak"
http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j26_ ... _20-23.pdf
I am aware that you talk about the problem of evil in your booklet. I also saw it addressed in the essay. The problem is, you didn't say anything in your essay that would persuade me to have any reason to read your booklet.

You spend most of your time stating what the 'problem' is. Then, you state that the typical response of Christians is the free will defense. Then you critique the free will defense on 2 fronts:

1. The free will defense only covers moral and not natural evil
2. The bible says free will isn't important to God

Claim 1 is an assertion without argumentation. The Bible suggests that sin led to consequences not only for humankind, but also for the ground/earth. God's creation is all connected.

Claim 2 makes more mistakes than I will list. For one, it assumes a hard-core Calvinistic interpretation of the text that is not only hotly debated, but downright unlikely once studied in context. For two, it attempts to build an entire conclusion (the Bible doesn't teach free will) from 1 passage when, in reality, the entire Bible assumes free will!

I'm just looking for SOMETHING that you have said on this forum or in your essay that sticks. So far, every single point that you've raised, once confronted, you've surrendered or chosen not to defend once scrutinized. Instead, you've continually just moved on to the 'next' supposedly irrefutable point. Then the next. Then the next.

Earlier you were talking about quote mining.... but I think you did this right here. Collins, 8 pages later (136) does indeed use the free will defense to help explain the problem of evil! The part you quoted, in context, is him admitting that there is currently no COMPLETE answer to the problem of evil. But all Christians agree with that, since we believe the problem will be fully answered in the future. You are judging a story without allowing for its ending.

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TrumanSmith
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by TrumanSmith » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:29 pm

mattrose wrote: Earlier you were talking about quote mining.... but I think you did this right here. Collins, 8 pages later (136) does indeed use the free will defense to help explain the problem of evil! The part you quoted, in context, is him admitting that there is currently no COMPLETE answer to the problem of evil. But all Christians agree with that, since we believe the problem will be fully answered in the future. You are judging a story without allowing for its ending.
Matt- read the quote from Francis Collins again:
"In fact it has no satisfactory answer whatsoever."

Did he say there's no 'complete' answer or no 'satisfactory' answer. I think you are reading what you want it to read rather than accepting what he actually said. Are you satisfied with the Christian answers? He's not. Neither was I. However,it all makes sense from a naturalistic worldview, so I left the faith for reasons like that.
..........
Truman Smith, author of "Modern Science and Philosophy Destroys Christian Theology"

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mattrose
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by mattrose » Wed Aug 28, 2013 7:10 pm

TrumanSmith wrote: Matt- read the quote from Francis Collins again:
"In fact it has no satisfactory answer whatsoever."

Did he say there's no 'complete' answer or no 'satisfactory' answer. I think you are reading what you want it to read rather than accepting what he actually said. Are you satisfied with the Christian answers? He's not. Neither was I. However,it all makes sense from a naturalistic worldview, so I left the faith for reasons like that.
Actually, you are the one reading what you want to read.

It HAS no satisfactory answer. That doesn't mean it won't in the future. No Christian thinks the problem of pain is CURRENTLY resolved. Francis Collins is a Christian. He goes on, in the book, to talk about why the problem of pain exists and his answer is not 'its just nature'... his answer is largely 'free will.' Did you read that section of the book or just the quote form the article?

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Homer
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Re: Debating an Atheist

Post by Homer » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:01 pm

However,it all makes sense from a naturalistic worldview, so I left the faith for reasons like that.
From a naturalistic evolutionary point of view it would seem that pain, suffering, death, the strong attacking the weak, etc. would all be seen to be a good and beneficial thing, survival of the fittest being the creating power that it is. Even Hitler could be seen as well intentioned, just trying to hurry the "improvement" along.

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